I've been largely lurking here for the last several months learning as much 
as I can, and I've finally started to put together the tools and materials 
I'll need to ruin, errrah, "reface" my first mouthpiece. So far I have two 
sets of feeler gauges - the set Jeff just had made up for the group and a 
standard .001 - .035 from Sears. What I have a lot more of is questions, so 
here goes;

1. I need to get a glass plate measuring gauge and I'm also considering 
getting a micrometer, vernier caliper, and depth gauge/ dial indicator. Are 
there other tools I'm overlooking and should I get one of the refacing kits 
(Winslow or Morgan)?

2. I'd also be interested in a detailed explanation of how to approach 
things. I understand the kits come with some documentation. Is it worth the 
price of the kits or is there another resource for this that I haven't 
found? I realize that there have been several things posted in the files 
section but I'm looking for something that is a little more basic of the 
"cause & effect / how & why" variety. For example - You have a medium sized 
square chamber mouthpiece (say a Yamaha 4C tenor, my first intended victum) 
and you wish to open it (throat and chamber) up. What's the best way to go 
about doing this, what type of effect is it likely to have on the piece and 
why. Are these the type of questions the documentation that comes with the 
kits answers??

3. Is a tenor piece a good one to start with or would bari, alto, or 
clarinet be better for some reason?

4.. When measuring the tip opening with feeler gauges do you measure across 
the tip (perpendicular) like you would the rest of the facing or just 
measure the center of the tip by sliding the end of the gauge straight in 
(popsicle stick style) between the rails.

5. Is it easier to work from the table forward or tip backward when refacing 
or is it just personal preference?

6. Are there special considerations in dealing with hard rubber, plastic, 
brass or stainless pieces?

Thanks,

Keith

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Keith Ley wrote:

>I've been largely lurking here for the last several months learning as much 
>as I can, and I've finally started to put together the tools and materials 
>I'll need to ruin, errrah, "reface" my first mouthpiece. So far I have two 
>sets of feeler gauges - the set Jeff just had made up for the group and a 
>standard .001 - .035 from Sears. What I have a lot more of is questions, so 
>here goes;
>
>1. I need to get a glass plate measuring gauge and I'm also considering 
>getting a micrometer, vernier caliper, and depth gauge/ dial indicator. Are 
>there other tools I'm overlooking and should I get one of the refacing kits 
>(Winslow or Morgan)?
>
There is a way to measure tip opening with the depth probe on a dial 
caliper. Have a hole drilled (at a glass shop, you can't do this with 
your Black & Decker) in the butt end of the glass gauge, or a similar 
piece of tempered glass... in fact, don't use the glass gauge... have 
them cut a pice of glass 1" wide by 4" long (25 mm x 100 mm) and about 
1/4" (or 10-12 mm) from one end, have a hole drilled that will allow the 
depth probe to pass through. Position this piece of glass on the table 
with the hole over the tip. Measure through the hole to the tip rail, 
and subtract the thickness of the glass from that reading. That is your 
tip opening. Ron Coelho showed me this method.

>
>2. I'd also be interested in a detailed explanation of how to approach 
>things. I understand the kits come with some documentation. Is it worth the 
>price of the kits or is there another resource for this that I haven't 
>found? I realize that there have been several things posted in the files 
>section but I'm looking for something that is a little more basic of the 
>"cause & effect / how & why" variety. For example - You have a medium sized 
>square chamber mouthpiece (say a Yamaha 4C tenor, my first intended victum) 
>and you wish to open it (throat and chamber) up. What's the best way to go 
>about doing this, what type of effect is it likely to have on the piece and 
>why. Are these the type of questions the documentation that comes with the 
>kits answers??
>
Winslow supplies one each alto sax, tenor sax, and clarinet mouthpieces. 
He advises you play them, get used to them, see just how they play. Then 
change the tip opening, and then test, see what effect your change made. 
You can fill in the chamber with putty, experiment with chamber shapes, etc.

>
>3. Is a tenor piece a good one to start with or would bari, alto, or 
>clarinet be better for some reason?
>
I suggest starting with whatever instrument you are most comfortable with.

>
>4.. When measuring the tip opening with feeler gauges do you measure across 
>the tip (perpendicular) like you would the rest of the facing or just 
>measure the center of the tip by sliding the end of the gauge straight in 
>(popsicle stick style) between the rails.
>
You cannot measure tip opening with feelers. Feelers, along wiht the 
glass gauge (which has lines spaced 1 mm apart) are used to plot the 
facing curve, such as

.0015" 22mm (facing length)
.010" 17 mm
.014" 14 mm
etc.
Tip .090"

This is called the "Facing Schedule"

>
>5. Is it easier to work from the table forward or tip backward when refacing 
>or is it just personal preference?
>
FIRST flatten the table. If the table is not flat, nothing else you do 
will be correct.

Then work from the break on forward to the tip.

>
>6. Are there special considerations in dealing with hard rubber, plastic, 
>brass or stainless pieces?
>
Stainless is almost impossible to work. Brass, once you cut through the 
plating is only slightly more difficult than plastic or hard rubber. The 
most difficult to work is the very soft "silverite" material of the 
Dukoff's. This material is no harder than soft solder, almost like lead. 
Simply placing the glass on the table will scratch it. Measuring the 
facing curve with feelers damages the rails. The slightest bump on the 
tip ruins the piece.

I use 600 grit silicon carbide paper for most of the work on rubber and 
plastic pieces. I use 400 for most of the work on metal. Then I move to 
800 for plastic and rubber, or 600 for metal, for the final touchup.

Use silicon carbide paper, not ordinary sand paper. With Silicon Carbide 
paper, the grit size is very consistent, no big lumps to ruin your work.

Paul

>
>Thanks,
>
>Keith
>
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>
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>

"Keith Ley" wrote:
> 
> 1. I need to get a glass plate measuring gauge and I'm also 
considering 
> getting a micrometer, vernier caliper, and depth gauge/ dial 
indicator. Are 
> there other tools I'm overlooking and should I get one of the 
refacing kits 
> (Winslow or Morgan)?

I do not think purchasing a kit is needed.  The Mouthpiece Work site 
has all the tools listed you might need.  Lists are posted in the 
Files area.  You will need to consider some files.  The text from the 
Erik Brand repair manual is better than the Winslow instructions in 
my opinion.  But I think all the info contained in those texts has 
been posted and discussed here over time.

> 
> 2. I'd also be interested in a detailed explanation of how to 
approach 
> things. I understand the kits come with some documentation. Is it 
worth the 
> price of the kits or is there another resource for this that I 
haven't 
> found? I realize that there have been several things posted in the 
files 
> section but I'm looking for something that is a little more basic 
of the 
> "cause & effect / how & why" variety. For example - You have a 
medium sized 
> square chamber mouthpiece (say a Yamaha 4C tenor, my first intended 
victum) 
> and you wish to open it (throat and chamber) up. What's the best 
way to go 
> about doing this, what type of effect is it likely to have on the 
piece and 
> why. Are these the type of questions the documentation that comes 
with the 
> kits answers??

Not really.  There is nothing published that tells you what parts to 
adjust to get a desired effect.  That is one of the reasons I started 
this group.  The texts just tell you how to measure/put a facing on a 
mouthpiece and how to narrow the table if it gets too wide after 
flattening.

> 
> 3. Is a tenor piece a good one to start with or would bari, alto, 
or 
> clarinet be better for some reason?

I would avoid soprano sax.  I think larger may be easier, like a bari 
sax, since you may be able to fit you fingers in the chamber easier 
for some baffle work.

> 
> 4.. When measuring the tip opening with feeler gauges do you 
measure across 
> the tip (perpendicular) like you would the rest of the facing or 
just 
> measure the center of the tip by sliding the end of the gauge 
straight in 
> (popsicle stick style) between the rails.

It is not a good idea to measure tip openings with feeler gauges.  I 
have not made the comparison, but I doubt the readings would compare 
well to other methods (calipers, wands, depth gauges).  

> 
> 5. Is it easier to work from the table forward or tip backward when 
refacing 
> or is it just personal preference?

I find if I establish the facing length first, I will mess it up 
before I'm done with the piece.  So I try to leave it short until the 
end.  I work the rest of the piece simultaneously with long curvy 
strokes until I get close.  Then I zero in on the high spots.  I have 
experimented some with starting at the tip.  While it is somewhat 
counter-intuitive, I think it has merit.  It keeps you from have to 
make a nice tip rail multiple times as while you open up a piece.

> 
> 6. Are there special considerations in dealing with hard rubber, 
plastic, 
> brass or stainless pieces?
> 

The harder the material, the coarser your tools can be when you start 
working them.  But if you go too coarse, you get deep scratches that 
are difficult to remove later.  This is mostly a cosmetic problem.  
Also, rather than dull my files on stainless steel, I will often wrap 
them with sandpaper.  I use small pieces of 220, 320, 400, 600 in my 
shaping work.  My fingers get sore working SS.   

Fine vintage hard rubber cuts real nice.  It has a crisp feeling.  
But I have had some that seem to have regions in them that are soft 
(punky?).  This is difficult since all of a sudden one swipe on the 
sandpaper overshoots your target.  Sneaking up on your facing targets 
takes a lot of patience in any material.  It takes a while for you to 
adjust to the hardness/softness of each new material.  

When breaking through Nickle and Chrome plating you can have a rail 
that is a mixture of hard plating and soft brass.  The soft brass 
will cut faster.  

I do not find Dukoff's softness very difficult to work with.  At 
first they gummed up my files a lot, but I have adjusted my technique 
to minimize the problem.  I use less pressure and I clean often with 
a file card.  Your feeler gauge edges cannot be to sharp or they will 
mark the side rails as you measure the piece.