Bite Plate Materials (Mouthpiece Work Yahoo Group)

FROM: rxsaxjazz (Don Hatfield)

SUBJECT: Bite Plate Materials

Hello, all!

I subscribed to this group a couple months ago, and have been tickled 
with all the info available, as well as the friendly atmosphere among 
you all. Now I have a question, if someone can help me. I have a 
couple of metal sax mouthpieces, a Santy Runyon and a Dukoff that was 
worked on for me by Jon van Wie just before he passed away, plus a 
nice old Ebolin clarinet mouthpiece, all of which need the bite 
plates redone. Metal mouthpieces I've worked with before, using old 
composition clarinet barrels and even HR mouthpiece scraps to replace 
the bite plates. But the Brilhart has a gouge down to the black 
surface underneath, and I wonder what materials to use to repair it 
so I can use it. I've read a little about acrylics, and would like to 
give it a whirl if I knew what to buy and where to find it.

Again, this is a great group and I'm sorry I didn't find it before 
now. Thanks for the time!

FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I dont have a great white bite plate material yet.  I have used a clear
5-min epoxy with some acrylic paint to tint it to an off-white color. 
After I sanded it smooth, the surrounding off-white material cleaned up to
a dazzling white while my repair patch remained off-white.  So the lesson
was clean the area you are trying to match first.

I would like to find a 2-part white acrylic.

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FROM: billmecca (billmecca)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Keith, 

what about some white delrin?  relatively cheap in bar form and white 
is it's natural color.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I dont have a great white bite plate material yet.  I have used a 
clear
> 5-min epoxy with some acrylic paint to tint it to an off-white 
color. 
> After I sanded it smooth, the surrounding off-white material 
cleaned up to
> a dazzling white while my repair patch remained off-white.  So the 
lesson
> was clean the area you are trying to match first.
> 
> I would like to find a 2-part white acrylic.
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I like Delrin, but it can be tough to get epoxy to stick to it.

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FROM: rxsaxjazz (Don Hatfield)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I am always watching hardware stores, hobby stores and such for useful "stuff" for my repair work and for mouthpiece work now that, after playing clarinet and sax for thirty-seven years I've been bitten by the mpc bug and want to learn more about making and refacing. On a recent trip to my local Lowes, I found hard plastic blocks, about ten inches long, and two"-by-two". It's white, looks and feels like it might be close to Delrin if not actually Delrin. It's used as a tapping block when working with laminated floors, like Pergo. I think I'll invest the $10 for one and see what uses it will serve, especially if ffor bite plates...I'll keep you posted. I did also find a white epoxy I hadn't seen in a model shop, so this weekend could be experiment time.

Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
I like Delrin, but it can be tough to get epoxy to stick to it.





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FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

The Brilhart Ebolin had a very thin bite plate, which was difficult to 
install by the manufacturer(s). 

 

The best way to repair these is to fill the gouge with 5 minute epoxy, 
let it harden, file and sand to shape.  Then sand with progressively 
finer silicon carbide paper, 600, 800, 1000.  Finally, polish to a gloss 
by hand with soft cloth and a plastic compound (I use Kit Scratch Out 
from automotive stores).

 

Then finish off by applying a clear adhesive patch.

 

What model is your Runyon?  Possibly Runyon Products can replace the 
bite plate.

 

Paul

Don Hatfield wrote:

> Hello, all!
>
> I subscribed to this group a couple months ago, and have been tickled
> with all the info available, as well as the friendly atmosphere among
> you all. Now I have a question, if someone can help me. I have a
> couple of metal sax mouthpieces, a Santy Runyon and a Dukoff that was
> worked on for me by Jon van Wie just before he passed away, plus a
> nice old Ebolin clarinet mouthpiece, all of which need the bite
> plates redone. Metal mouthpieces I've worked with before, using old
> composition clarinet barrels and even HR mouthpiece scraps to replace
> the bite plates. But the Brilhart has a gouge down to the black
> surface underneath, and I wonder what materials to use to repair it
> so I can use it. I've read a little about acrylics, and would like to
> give it a whirl if I knew what to buy and where to find it.
>
> Again, this is a great group and I'm sorry I didn't find it before
> now. Thanks for the time!
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
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>
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>

FROM: kymarto (Toby)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I  just want to repeat to you guys that epoxies are full of really nasty stuff like bisphenols and not meant to be put in your mouth.

Toby


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Coats 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Bite Plate Materials


  The Brilhart Ebolin had a very thin bite plate, which was difficult to install by the manufacturer(s).  

  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

  The best way to repair these is to fill the gouge with 5 minute epoxy, let it harden, file and sand to shape.  Then sand with progressively finer silicon carbide paper, 600, 800, 1000.  Finally, polish to a gloss by hand with soft cloth and a plastic compound (I use Kit Scratch Out from automotive stores).

  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

  Then finish off by applying a clear adhesive patch.

  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

  What model is your Runyon?  Possibly Runyon Products can replace the bite plate.

  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

  Paul

  Don Hatfield wrote:

    Hello, all!

    I subscribed to this group a couple months ago, and have been tickled 
    with all the info available, as well as the friendly atmosphere among 
    you all. Now I have a question, if someone can help me. I have a 
    couple of metal sax mouthpieces, a Santy Runyon and a Dukoff that was 
    worked on for me by Jon van Wie just before he passed away, plus a 
    nice old Ebolin clarinet mouthpiece, all of which need the bite 
    plates redone. Metal mouthpieces I've worked with before, using old 
    composition clarinet barrels and even HR mouthpiece scraps to replace 
    the bite plates. But the Brilhart has a gouge down to the black 
    surface underneath, and I wonder what materials to use to repair it 
    so I can use it. I've read a little about acrylics, and would like to 
    give it a whirl if I knew what to buy and where to find it.

    Again, this is a great group and I'm sorry I didn't find it before 
    now. Thanks for the time!



    Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

    Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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FROM: rxsaxjazz (Don Hatfield)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

So it's safe for use as Paul described as long as I'm using a tooth patch (which I use on all my mputhpieces anyway)? Please clarify before I start experimenting. I think I'm going to try acrylic on the Brilhart first, anyway. The Runyon I have is about thirty years old, I got it on ebay for ten bucks. The bite plate was missing and the table has some light pitting, which doesn't seem to be a problem for a good seal with the surface of the reed.. 



A man grows old only if his dreams turn to regrets - John Barrymore

Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx


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FROM: kymarto (Toby)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I would guess that as long as the epoxy surface is covered so that chems can't leach out into saliva you are pretty safe. Acrylic plastics are safe, polycarbonates are not necessarily so. Here is a link if you are interested in a place to start researching the scary world of plastics:

http://website.lineone.net/~mwarhurst/bisphenol.html

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Hatfield
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Bite Plate Materials

So it's safe for use as Paul described as long as I'm using a tooth patch (which I use on all my mputhpieces anyway)? Please clarify before I start experimenting. I think I'm going to try acrylic on the Brilhart first, anyway. The Runyon I have is about thirty years old, I got it on ebay for ten bucks. The bite plate was missing and the table has some light pitting, which doesn't seem to be a problem for a good seal with the surface of the reed..

A man grows old only if his dreams turn to regrets - John Barrymore

Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

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FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

The bite plate on a Brilhart Ebolin is VERY thin, and curved.  It would 
be very difficult to form this piece from a piece of Delrin rod or bar 
stock.  And it is almost impossible to glue it.

 

The current actual mfg of the Brilhart plastic models is J. J. Babbit.  
Perhaps they can supply spare biteplates?

 

Paul



billmecca wrote:

> Keith,
>
> what about some white delrin?  relatively cheap in bar form and white
> is it's natural color.
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury
> <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > I dont have a great white bite plate material yet.  I have used a
> clear
> > 5-min epoxy with some acrylic paint to tint it to an off-white
> color.
> > After I sanded it smooth, the surrounding off-white material
> cleaned up to
> > a dazzling white while my repair patch remained off-white.  So the
> lesson
> > was clean the area you are trying to match first.
> >
> > I would like to find a 2-part white acrylic.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork/
>        
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> ...Here is a link if you are interested in a place to start 
researching the scary world of plastics:
> 
> http://website.lineone.net/~mwarhurst/bisphenol.html

There have been some studies on dental epoxies:

http://www.bisphenol-a.org/human/dental.html#release

These reside in the mouth after application.  Not exactly the same as 
a mouthpiece epoxy study, but it offers some insight.

FROM: kymarto (Toby)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Hi Keith and all,

It is worth noting that this is an plastics industry website--not likely to report critical studies. Remember the tobacco industry reports claiming that there was no proven causal link between smoking and heart disease and cancer?

This is a very contentious issue, and evidence is mounting for bisphenol A and other xeroestrogens being heavily involved in the 50% drop in sperm counts worldwide in the last 30 years, as well as the precipitous rise in testicular cancers, genital and reproductive malformations, etc.

Stephen Howard contacted the manufacturers of JB Weld directly about oral safety, as he was using it to repair mpcs, and they did not recommend it to be used when there would be prolonged oral contact--a change of tune from a year earlier when they proclaimed that it was totally inert after setting.

I just want to make you all aware that questions exist about the safety of epoxies, which are far from being settled. Why not go with acrylic resins? Certainly they take longer to set and are more expensive, but they are harder than epoxies and safe.

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:32 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Bite Plate Materials

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> ...Here is a link if you are interested in a place to start
researching the scary world of plastics:
>
> http://website.lineone.net/~mwarhurst/bisphenol.html

There have been some studies on dental epoxies:

http://www.bisphenol-a.org/human/dental.html#release

These reside in the mouth after application. Not exactly the same as
a mouthpiece epoxy study, but it offers some insight.

Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Toby, I appreciate your insights and arguments.  I was just tossing some
Devil's advocate out to see what happens.  I had not caught up with JB Weld
softening their position.  Keep looking out for us!

I do not mind working with 2-part acrylic.  So that may be the safer route
to go.  The stuff I have cures a little funny.  Like a wet layer stays on
top for 3 days then I wipe it off and do some final shaping.  I think it
does a nicer job than epoxy on bite plate repairs.  Seems a little harder
(resists abrasion) than epoxy but is not as brittle.

But I do not think it would work well for corner chip repairs.  I have not
tried it, its just an impression.  I get a few small bubbles in the
acrylic, which does not help.



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FROM: rxsaxjazz (Don Hatfield)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Never thought of that...which is the reason a list like this is invaluable for countless reasons.
Thanks again, Paul.

Don

Paul Coats <tenorman@...> wrote:

The bite plate on a Brilhart Ebolin is VERY thin, and curved.  It would be very difficult to form this piece from a piece of Delrin rod or bar stock.  And it is almost impossible to glue it.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

The current actual mfg of the Brilhart plastic models is J. J. Babbit.  Perhaps they can supply spare biteplates?

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Paul

billmecca wrote:
Keith, 

what about some white delrin?  relatively cheap in bar form and white 
is it's natural color.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I dont have a great white bite plate material yet.  I have used a 
clear
> 5-min epoxy with some acrylic paint to tint it to an off-white 
color. 
> After I sanded it smooth, the surrounding off-white material 
cleaned up to
> a dazzling white while my repair patch remained off-white.  So the 
lesson
> was clean the area you are trying to match first.
> 
> I would like to find a 2-part white acrylic.
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools

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FROM: kymarto (Toby)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Hi Keith,

For corner chips you really don't have much choice but to use epoxies. On the other hand the actual amount of epoxiy used to repair a corner chip is going to be much smaller--with much less surface exposed--than is a bite plate. It's a matter of degree and what level of risk you are willing to accept. Basically there is no way to eliminate our exposure to these chems. They are used in can linings and polycarb bottles and containers are basically everywhere. I think it's pretty ironic that all those new-age souls in California who go around hydrating themselves with their pure mineral waters carry them in polycarbonate squeeze bottles.

Fact is that bisphenol A is not in every epoxy (doesn't really need to be in any except that it makes them more flexible). With a bit of research it should be possible to find epoxies without bisphenol A.

FWIW,

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Bite Plate Materials

Toby, I appreciate your insights and arguments. I was just tossing some
Devil's advocate out to see what happens. I had not caught up with JB Weld
softening their position. Keep looking out for us!

I do not mind working with 2-part acrylic. So that may be the safer route
to go. The stuff I have cures a little funny. Like a wet layer stays on
top for 3 days then I wipe it off and do some final shaping. I think it
does a nicer job than epoxy on bite plate repairs. Seems a little harder
(resists abrasion) than epoxy but is not as brittle.

But I do not think it would work well for corner chip repairs. I have not
tried it, its just an impression. I get a few small bubbles in the
acrylic, which does not help.

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FROM: rxsaxjazz (Don Hatfield)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

I have replaced chipped corners with pieces from other old mouthpieces and epoxy or Hot Stuff super glue. The one I was really most successful with was an old Selmer short shank Table D, which had had a piece about the size of a pencil eraser broken off. Using an old, worn Selmer S80, I was able to match the corner, glue it in place with Hot Stuff and then touch up the rail and tip. It turned out better than I was capable of at the time, so beginner's luck played heavily on the process.It's holding up three years later, and hard to see the repair.

 
For corner chips you really don't have much choice but to use epoxies. On the other hand the actual amount of epoxiy used to repair a corner chip is going to be much smaller--with much less surface exposed--than is a bite plate. 




A man grows old only if his dreams turn to regrets - John Barrymore

Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx


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FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

The epoxy putties I use for baffles are approved for use on drinking 
water piping.

 

Paul



Toby wrote:

> Hi Keith,
>  
> For corner chips you really don't have much choice but to use epoxies. 
> On the other hand the actual amount of epoxiy used to repair a corner 
> chip is going to be much smaller--with much less surface exposed--than 
> is a bite plate. It's a matter of degree and what level of risk you 
> are willing to accept. Basically there is no way to eliminate our 
> exposure to these chems. They are used in can linings and polycarb 
> bottles and containers are basically everywhere. I think it's pretty 
> ironic that all those new-age souls in California who go around 
> hydrating themselves with their pure mineral waters carry them in 
> polycarbonate squeeze bottles.
>  
> Fact is that bisphenol A is not in every epoxy (doesn't really need to 
> be in any except that it makes them more flexible). With a bit of 
> research it should be possible to find epoxies without bisphenol A.
>  
> FWIW,
>  
> Toby
>
>

FROM: kymarto (Toby)

SUBJECT: Re: Bite Plate Materials

Hi Paul,

Many epoxies that are approved for dental use and for coating the insides of food cans have bisphenol A as an ingredient. Generally the food and dental and plastics industries claim that they are safe, as might be expected.

I mean you are not going to drop over dead from bisphenol exposure, but there is mounting evidence that it might well be a causative factor in a number of health problems. Some people feel that there is a coverup both becasue of the costs of switching materials and I suppose for potential liabilities. I just think it is prudent to avoid problem plastics as much as possible. Also baffles and bite plates are two different animals, as baffles don't come into contact with the mouth generally and you usually don't swallow saliva that has been in contact with the baffle.

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Coats
To: MouthpieceWork@...m
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Bite Plate Materials

The epoxy putties I use for baffles are approved for use on drinking water piping.

Paul

Toby wrote:

Hi Keith,

FWIW,

Toby

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