I've had some success at fixing bad facings and opening up a piece 
here and there, but I have a couple of mouthpieces that I just can't 
get right. Some serious rambling is about to follow so I understand 
if y'all tune out on this, but I'd appreciate suggestions if you can 
hang in there with me.

I believe that the problem lies in the way I take facing measurements 
and/or the way I remove material from the rails. When I think I have 
done a good job of measuring and correcting the rails, I polish the 
rails on the back side of the paper. Under a strong light it is easy 
to see that there are flat spots and high points on each rail.

So, I'm thinking its got to be one or both of these two things:

1) I'm not removing material from the rails like my measurements 
indicate I should. It must be my technique of "aiming" for the 
desired spot to remove material or the way I do it. Any pointers 
here? I'd love to watch a video of one of the experts going through 
this process.

2) My feeler readings must not be correct as I go through the process 
of bringing down the rails. I'm thinking that the little ridges that 
are created on the rails when I take the feeler readings are 
affecting subsequent readings. It appears that feelers are getting 
hung on these ridges giving bad readings. Silverite seems to be the 
worst about getting these ridges. I've tried to smooth out the ridges 
before taking another reading but that just takes off more material 
in that particular spot each time I take a reading.

I guess there could be a bunch of other possibilities (feelers not 
accurate, table really isn't flat so mouthpiece tilts differently 
depending on how I hold it to the glass, etc.).

Ok, the rambling is over.
Any suggestions or encouragement y'all can give me would be great!
Jon

MERELY MEASURING Dukoff "silverite" mouthpieces will damage the facing.
Placing the glass guage on the table will scratch it.

It is a shame that Dukoff choses to make what is a nice, popular design
in such a poor material.

Paul

stencilmann wrote:

>  I've had some success at fixing bad facings and opening up a piece
> here and there, but I have a couple of mouthpieces that I just can't
> get right. Some serious rambling is about to follow so I understand
> if y'all tune out on this, but I'd appreciate suggestions if you can
> hang in there with me.
>
> I believe that the problem lies in the way I take facing measurements
> and/or the way I remove material from the rails. When I think I have
> done a good job of measuring and correcting the rails, I polish the
> rails on the back side of the paper. Under a strong light it is easy
> to see that there are flat spots and high points on each rail.
>
> So, I'm thinking its got to be one or both of these two things:
>
> 1) I'm not removing material from the rails like my measurements
> indicate I should. It must be my technique of "aiming" for the
> desired spot to remove material or the way I do it. Any pointers
> here? I'd love to watch a video of one of the experts going through
> this process.
>
> 2) My feeler readings must not be correct as I go through the process
> of bringing down the rails. I'm thinking that the little ridges that
> are created on the rails when I take the feeler readings are
> affecting subsequent readings. It appears that feelers are getting
> hung on these ridges giving bad readings. Silverite seems to be the
> worst about getting these ridges. I've tried to smooth out the ridges
> before taking another reading but that just takes off more material
> in that particular spot each time I take a reading.
>
> I guess there could be a bunch of other possibilities (feelers not
> accurate, table really isn't flat so mouthpiece tilts differently
> depending on how I hold it to the glass, etc.).
>
> Ok, the rambling is over.
> Any suggestions or encouragement y'all can give me would be great!
> Jon
>
>
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--
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  http://www.saxontheweb.net

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and view photos.

Well, one good thing you have going for you is your self-
evaluation/analysis.  

Polishing on the back of paper with a couple of strokes, while 
angling the piece through the facing curve, should blend the minor 
bumps/flat spots.  It can be done firmly but not vigorously.  Care 
must be taken not to dwell on the spot whare the facing meets the 
table.  The .0015" area can easily get messed up, even when using the 
back of paper.  Especially on Dukoffs.

> 1) I'm not removing material from the rails like my measurements 
> indicate I should. It must be my technique of "aiming" for the 
> desired spot to remove material or the way I do it. Any pointers 
> here? I'd love to watch a video of one of the experts going through 
> this process.

Try this:  Take a pencil or a felt tip marker and color the side rail 
surfaces that the reed hits.  Now mark a line on the side of the 
piece to show where you want to take a little off the rails.  With 
very fine sand paper (even 1500) try to angle the piece to take some 
off your target spot and take stroke on the paper.  Inspect rails to 
see where the mark is now clean.  This kind of feeback will tell you 
how you need to angle the piece to hit the target spot.  I find that 
the piece needs to be angeled away from the paper a little more than 
I think by just looking at the side mark.  This exercise will also 
show you how long a section of rail is getting material removed.  If 
your paper is not flat, or your stroke is not steady, you may remove 
material that messes up a neighboring reading that you had already 
worked to get a target value.  You will need to improve your 
technique to the point where you can hit one spot without messing up 
the others and/or you will need to approach the target values of 
several readings simultaneously.

> 
> 2) My feeler readings must not be correct as I go through the 
process 
> of bringing down the rails. I'm thinking that the little ridges 
that 
> are created on the rails when I take the feeler readings are 
> affecting subsequent readings. It appears that feelers are getting 
> hung on these ridges giving bad readings. Silverite seems to be the 
> worst about getting these ridges. I've tried to smooth out the 
ridges 
> before taking another reading but that just takes off more material 
> in that particular spot each time I take a reading.

You should not be jamming the feelers in there.  Be gentle.  Also, 
the edges of your feelers may be too sharp.  If you can slice your 
skin with a feeler you should sand down its edges some with some fine 
paper (like 800 grit).  Dont take too much off or it will affect your 
readings.

> 
> I guess there could be a bunch of other possibilities (feelers not 
> accurate, table really isn't flat so mouthpiece tilts differently 
> depending on how I hold it to the glass, etc.).
> 
> Ok, the rambling is over.
> Any suggestions or encouragement y'all can give me would be great!
> Jon

Actually, I am surprised we have not had more frustrating rants 
posted on this site.  Where you are at is the 2nd most difficult part 
of refacing in my opinion.  Getting the table flat can be worse.

Keith wrote:
> Well, one good thing you have going for you is your self-
> evaluation/analysis.  

Thanks for the encouragement. I need it!

> Try this:  Take a pencil or a felt tip marker and color the side
> rail surfaces that the reed hits.  Now mark a line on the side of
> the piece to show where you want to take a little off the rails.
> With very fine sand paper (even 1500) try to angle the piece to
> take some off your target spot and take stroke on the paper.
> Inspect rails to see where the mark is now clean.

Ok, I've been trying this exact proceedure during my lunch break here 
at work. I've been marking the side with a pencil and then using 
computer paper instead of even 2000 grit. On the Silverite, the paper 
seems to smooth out the little mark from the feeler creating a shiny 
spot, almost like denting the nick back in rather than grinding it 
off. This seems to help.

Also, I tried placing the back end of the table on a feeler to tilt 
the mouthpiece so that it touches the paper just behind the mark. 
Then I can drag the mouthpiece 5cm or so using the feeler at the back 
to stablize everything. This reduces the amount of "aiming" I have to 
do. The feeler has to be the right thickness and it has to be 
positioned at the right position on the table to produce the perfect 
angle. I think I am going to stick with this approach for a while 
until I get a better feeling (NPI) for this.

> If your paper is not flat, or your stroke is not steady, you may
> remove material that messes up a neighboring reading that you had
> already worked to get a target value. You will need to improve
> your technique...

I think the "feeler in the back" technique will help even out my 
stroke. As I approach the tip, I noticed that the feeler wanted to 
dig into the rails just a bit so I wrapped it in paper. I think my 
adjustments came out much better this time. The rails look much more 
even than what I did yesterday.

> You should not be jamming the feelers in there.  Be gentle.

Like Paul said, Silverite is not fun to work with. I haven't had this 
kind of trouble with rubber, plastic Ricos, or steel Bergs. I'll look 
at my feelers to see if their too sharp. I don't think so.

Thanks Keith for your suggestions - you are awesome. We'll see how 
she plays when I get home this evening. Its funny that I have a 
couple of Rico Graftonites that play like I want because I was able 
to duplicate the inside measurements of the Dukoff pretty well - they 
just have a slightly longer facing. Now if I can only get this Dukoff 
to play like a Dukoff!

I've worked on a bunch of Silverite Dukoffs.  I have not had a significant
problem with the side rails getting nicked up.  I have nicked the inside of
the tip rail some when I measure the tip opening via my digital calipers. 
They are sharper than my feeler Gage edges and I apply more force when I
use them.

The newer Dukoffs are Nickle plated on the outside.  This may make rail
work a little easier with them.

The new Dukoffs seem more symmetric to me than the older ones.  They make
better blanks, but I have found them to be way smaller than the old charts.
 I have a D9 here now that measures .099" vs .125" on the charts.

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