I'm just a beginner with this mouthpiece work but I thought of 
sharing this one experience I had with trying make table straight on 
this metal Link I'm working on:

The table was crooked,didn't seal with any reed.I tried to sand it 
down a bit,shank or tip facing towards me,stroking away from me.That 
didn't work,I was getting VERY long facings.Then I tried to sand it 
down using circular motion with as even pressure as I could.The 
result was a straight table that seals with a reed.

This is probably common knowledge but I thought of sharing it anyway 
because it seems to work.

This can be maddening work.  After working some 60 pieces or so, I'm still
experimenting with technique variations.  Different materials, sandpapers,
mouthpiece table sizes, and whatever is wrong with them can require
different kinds of strokes..

I think it is very common while you are getting started to try changing
directions too soon.  Either push vs pull or flipping the piece around to
see if that works better.  This nearly always leads to creating a convex
table which looks like a very long facing.

One way to fix a convex table is to directly sand the hump with a small
piece of sandpaper under your finger.  Sand it until it becomes a low spot.
 Now when you sand the table with strokes on the flat surface, it will not
rock on a point.  The low spot now has a hump on either side of it that
stabilizes the table on the flat surface.  As you approach flatness in the
middle, you need to be aware of the potential to rock again.  You may even
need to create a low spot again.  But you should strive to learn where to
place your finger and wrist force to remove material where you want too and
stick with the same strokes until progress is made.

If any of you can recall some basic Physics of force couples, there is a
lot of this going on in the simple sliding of a table on a flat surface.  I
have abandoned sideways and diagonal strokes.  They work sometimes, but I
decided that they are too difficult to direct the forces to remove the
material where I wanted to.

Stroking heel to tip is generally best.  This generally cuts more material
off the heel, but it depends on how you hold the piece.  I sometimes lead
with the tip by flipping the piece around to make a facing shorter and
close down a tip.  But you need to watch that the sandpaper does not hump
up off the flat surface and mess up your facing length as you stroke.  It
does not take much to mess up a facing length and it take many many strokes
to fix it.  Then your table gets wider and wider and you need to trim the
sides.  It can really snowball into a mess.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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Good thoughts,Keith.Not being able to get the table straight (and 
ruined couple of mouthpieces trying) caused me to give up trying to 
work on mouthpieces in the past.But now these circular motion strokes 
really seem to work;I can get straight enough tables to get the reed 
to seal.--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> This can be maddening work.  After working some 60 pieces or so, 
I'm still
> experimenting with technique variations.  Different materials, 
sandpapers,
> mouthpiece table sizes, and whatever is wrong with them can require
> different kinds of strokes..
> 
> I think it is very common while you are getting started to try 
changing
> directions too soon.  Either push vs pull or flipping the piece 
around to
> see if that works better.  This nearly always leads to creating a 
convex
> table which looks like a very long facing.
> 
> One way to fix a convex table is to directly sand the hump with a 
small
> piece of sandpaper under your finger.  Sand it until it becomes a 
low spot.
>  Now when you sand the table with strokes on the flat surface, it 
will not
> rock on a point.  The low spot now has a hump on either side of it 
that
> stabilizes the table on the flat surface.  As you approach flatness 
in the
> middle, you need to be aware of the potential to rock again.  You 
may even
> need to create a low spot again.  But you should strive to learn 
where to
> place your finger and wrist force to remove material where you want 
too and
> stick with the same strokes until progress is made.
> 
> If any of you can recall some basic Physics of force couples, there 
is a
> lot of this going on in the simple sliding of a table on a flat 
surface.  I
> have abandoned sideways and diagonal strokes.  They work sometimes, 
but I
> decided that they are too difficult to direct the forces to remove 
the
> material where I wanted to.
> 
> Stroking heel to tip is generally best.  This generally cuts more 
material
> off the heel, but it depends on how you hold the piece.  I 
sometimes lead
> with the tip by flipping the piece around to make a facing shorter 
and
> close down a tip.  But you need to watch that the sandpaper does 
not hump
> up off the flat surface and mess up your facing length as you 
stroke.  It
> does not take much to mess up a facing length and it take many many 
strokes
> to fix it.  Then your table gets wider and wider and you need to 
trim the
> sides.  It can really snowball into a mess.
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Use whatever works for you.  I hold a straight edge (edge of the glass
gage) against the table and look for light peeking under the edge.  Do this
near the edge, middle and cross ways too.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

This has been my experience too--it's almost impossible to apply sufficient
force and keep the mpc level as you stroke it--you're almost always going to
end up with some kind of convex surface. I keep wondering if it would not be
possible to let some machine do the movement which would free me to do the
guiding. I was thinking that perhaps a table grinder (or whatever you call
it--one of those motors with a sanding wheel on both ends of the motor
spindle) might be usable. Just hold the mpc on the side of the wheel (which
is flat) and viola!

I haven't tried it yet though...

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table


> This can be maddening work.  After working some 60 pieces or so, I'm still
> experimenting with technique variations.  Different materials, sandpapers,
> mouthpiece table sizes, and whatever is wrong with them can require
> different kinds of strokes..
>
> I think it is very common while you are getting started to try changing
> directions too soon.  Either push vs pull or flipping the piece around to
> see if that works better.  This nearly always leads to creating a convex
> table which looks like a very long facing.
>
> One way to fix a convex table is to directly sand the hump with a small
> piece of sandpaper under your finger.  Sand it until it becomes a low
spot.
>  Now when you sand the table with strokes on the flat surface, it will not
> rock on a point.  The low spot now has a hump on either side of it that
> stabilizes the table on the flat surface.  As you approach flatness in the
> middle, you need to be aware of the potential to rock again.  You may even
> need to create a low spot again.  But you should strive to learn where to
> place your finger and wrist force to remove material where you want too
and
> stick with the same strokes until progress is made.
>
> If any of you can recall some basic Physics of force couples, there is a
> lot of this going on in the simple sliding of a table on a flat surface.
I
> have abandoned sideways and diagonal strokes.  They work sometimes, but I
> decided that they are too difficult to direct the forces to remove the
> material where I wanted to.
>
> Stroking heel to tip is generally best.  This generally cuts more material
> off the heel, but it depends on how you hold the piece.  I sometimes lead
> with the tip by flipping the piece around to make a facing shorter and
> close down a tip.  But you need to watch that the sandpaper does not hump
> up off the flat surface and mess up your facing length as you stroke.  It
> does not take much to mess up a facing length and it take many many
strokes
> to fix it.  Then your table gets wider and wider and you need to trim the
> sides.  It can really snowball into a mess.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Toby,try sanding the table down with circular strokes (like O shaped 
strokes) with as even pressure as possible.It seems to work,worth a 
try.--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> 
wrote:
> This has been my experience too--it's almost impossible to apply 
sufficient
> force and keep the mpc level as you stroke it--you're almost always 
going to
> end up with some kind of convex surface. I keep wondering if it 
would not be
> possible to let some machine do the movement which would free me to 
do the
> guiding. I was thinking that perhaps a table grinder (or whatever 
you call
> it--one of those motors with a sanding wheel on both ends of the 
motor
> spindle) might be usable. Just hold the mpc on the side of the 
wheel (which
> is flat) and viola!
> 
> I haven't tried it yet though...
> 
> Toby
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...>
> To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 5:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table
> 
> 
> > This can be maddening work.  After working some 60 pieces or so, 
I'm still
> > experimenting with technique variations.  Different materials, 
sandpapers,
> > mouthpiece table sizes, and whatever is wrong with them can 
require
> > different kinds of strokes..
> >
> > I think it is very common while you are getting started to try 
changing
> > directions too soon.  Either push vs pull or flipping the piece 
around to
> > see if that works better.  This nearly always leads to creating a 
convex
> > table which looks like a very long facing.
> >
> > One way to fix a convex table is to directly sand the hump with a 
small
> > piece of sandpaper under your finger.  Sand it until it becomes a 
low
> spot.
> >  Now when you sand the table with strokes on the flat surface, it 
will not
> > rock on a point.  The low spot now has a hump on either side of 
it that
> > stabilizes the table on the flat surface.  As you approach 
flatness in the
> > middle, you need to be aware of the potential to rock again.  You 
may even
> > need to create a low spot again.  But you should strive to learn 
where to
> > place your finger and wrist force to remove material where you 
want too
> and
> > stick with the same strokes until progress is made.
> >
> > If any of you can recall some basic Physics of force couples, 
there is a
> > lot of this going on in the simple sliding of a table on a flat 
surface.
> I
> > have abandoned sideways and diagonal strokes.  They work 
sometimes, but I
> > decided that they are too difficult to direct the forces to 
remove the
> > material where I wanted to.
> >
> > Stroking heel to tip is generally best.  This generally cuts more 
material
> > off the heel, but it depends on how you hold the piece.  I 
sometimes lead
> > with the tip by flipping the piece around to make a facing 
shorter and
> > close down a tip.  But you need to watch that the sandpaper does 
not hump
> > up off the flat surface and mess up your facing length as you 
stroke.  It
> > does not take much to mess up a facing length and it take many 
many
> strokes
> > to fix it.  Then your table gets wider and wider and you need to 
trim the
> > sides.  It can really snowball into a mess.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to 
see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

Actually I haven't had that much trouble flattening the table, the real
trouble starts when the rails are uneven and I want to even them out without
touching the tip geometry, which means changing the lateral angle of the
table while keeping it flat. It means applying more pressure to one side
while you do the strokes, while keeping the whole thing flush with the
grinding surface. It sure seems like a nice idea to just be able to apply
the pressure and let a machine do the moving....

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "boptonetom" <vphaanmaki@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:10 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Straightening the table


> Toby,try sanding the table down with circular strokes (like O shaped
> strokes) with as even pressure as possible.It seems to work,worth a
> try.--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...>
> wrote:
> > This has been my experience too--it's almost impossible to apply
> sufficient
> > force and keep the mpc level as you stroke it--you're almost always
> going to
> > end up with some kind of convex surface. I keep wondering if it
> would not be
> > possible to let some machine do the movement which would free me to
> do the
> > guiding. I was thinking that perhaps a table grinder (or whatever
> you call
> > it--one of those motors with a sanding wheel on both ends of the
> motor
> > spindle) might be usable. Just hold the mpc on the side of the
> wheel (which
> > is flat) and viola!
> >
> > I haven't tried it yet though...
> >
> > Toby
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...>
> > To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 5:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table
> >
> >
> > > This can be maddening work.  After working some 60 pieces or so,
> I'm still
> > > experimenting with technique variations.  Different materials,
> sandpapers,
> > > mouthpiece table sizes, and whatever is wrong with them can
> require
> > > different kinds of strokes..
> > >
> > > I think it is very common while you are getting started to try
> changing
> > > directions too soon.  Either push vs pull or flipping the piece
> around to
> > > see if that works better.  This nearly always leads to creating a
> convex
> > > table which looks like a very long facing.
> > >
> > > One way to fix a convex table is to directly sand the hump with a
> small
> > > piece of sandpaper under your finger.  Sand it until it becomes a
> low
> > spot.
> > >  Now when you sand the table with strokes on the flat surface, it
> will not
> > > rock on a point.  The low spot now has a hump on either side of
> it that
> > > stabilizes the table on the flat surface.  As you approach
> flatness in the
> > > middle, you need to be aware of the potential to rock again.  You
> may even
> > > need to create a low spot again.  But you should strive to learn
> where to
> > > place your finger and wrist force to remove material where you
> want too
> > and
> > > stick with the same strokes until progress is made.
> > >
> > > If any of you can recall some basic Physics of force couples,
> there is a
> > > lot of this going on in the simple sliding of a table on a flat
> surface.
> > I
> > > have abandoned sideways and diagonal strokes.  They work
> sometimes, but I
> > > decided that they are too difficult to direct the forces to
> remove the
> > > material where I wanted to.
> > >
> > > Stroking heel to tip is generally best.  This generally cuts more
> material
> > > off the heel, but it depends on how you hold the piece.  I
> sometimes lead
> > > with the tip by flipping the piece around to make a facing
> shorter and
> > > close down a tip.  But you need to watch that the sandpaper does
> not hump
> > > up off the flat surface and mess up your facing length as you
> stroke.  It
> > > does not take much to mess up a facing length and it take many
> many
> > strokes
> > > to fix it.  Then your table gets wider and wider and you need to
> trim the
> > > sides.  It can really snowball into a mess.
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> see the
> > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> > >
> > > To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>>>It sure seems like a nice idea to just be able to apply
the pressure and let a machine do the moving....

Then it would not be hand facing.  Machines are good to a point.  That is
how nearly all mouthpieces are made (but we all know that, I hope).

But you desire some kind of machine or jig assisted table flattening gismo
that you can configure to take a little off where you want it to.  Just
about any such device is going to suffer the same problems as the blank
making machines.  Slop in the mechanism, operator set-up, tool wear.

A good strategy (design goal), good guaging (evaluation, feedback), good
tools and skilled hand work will always yield superior results.  The key is
to get good enough at this that your are indeed better than a machine.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter table.
The more material taken off, the more the table is shortened.  But that
is really an abrupt angle, not a curve that flows smoothly into the
tangent (table).  Then the facing has to be reworked.

The method I use, I grasp the mouthpiece between my thumb and fingers
along the side of the mouthpiece, tip away from me.  Actually, the glass
plate and mouthpiece are in front of me at about a 45 degree angle, but
in line with my natural arm angle.  I rest my index finger directly on
top of the mouthpiece at about the center of the table to apply pressure
directly down.

I draw the mouthpiece in a straight line.  I never push toward the
facing, always draw the mouthpiece in the direction of the shank.

If you move the mouthpiece in a circular motion, you run the risk of
rounding the sides up, making a slightly convex table.

For MOST work, flattening the table and working the facing, I use 600
grit silicon carbide paper.  Only if I must take a lot of material off
the table do I use 400 grit.  With each stroke, I move to a new, clean
area of the paper.  I don�t try to keep using loaded up paper, it does a
poor job.

For very fine adjustments of the facing, such as trying to even a high
spot in the middle of the facing, I use 800 grit.

To take file marks out of the baffle, I use some 800 paper wrapped
around the file.

I tear 1000 and 1200 grit paper into narrow �� (7mm) strips for
polishing the baffle further.  The technique here is to position the
strip in the mouthpiece, and apply pressure to the baffle lightly with
my thumb, while holding the mouthpiece, and drawing the strip of paper
out with my other hand.  The strip of paper is drawn straight out, not
pulled against the tip rail.  Pulling it straight out it will never
touch the tip rail, which is angled down away from the paper.

To do a final polish on the baffle, I use a tool shown to me by Santy
Runyon.  I cut a �� wood dowel about 6� (150 mm) long.   On the end I
trim a flat spot about 1� (25 mm).  I glue a rectangle of 16� sheet cork
on the flat spot, and on top of the cork, a piece of chamois.  Then I
use a plastic polish, with a little water, to finish polish the baffle.
Keeping the angle of the polishing tool up will prevent it from touching
and damaging the tip rail.

To polish the table and facing it is NOT necessary to use any
compounds.  This is very simple�

Simply turn the sheet of 600 or 800 paper grit side down� the backing
up.  There is enough carbide dust in the paper to polish well.  A few
light strokes, as described above for flattening the table, will put a
nice sheen on the table and remove any residual marks.  Then a light
pass, lifting the back of the mouthpiece, polishing along the facing and
tip will put a nice shine on those surfaces, too.  I do no other
polishing on the table.  This is MORE than sufficient to give a great
seal and a professional look.  The high polish will not make it play
better, and this step may be skipped, but it is easy to do.  Appearance
means a lot to the customer.

While I am working on it, I take a few minutes to HAND POLISH the
outside.  I simply use a soft cloth and the same plastic polish.  I do
NOT buff mouthpieces on the power cloth wheels with rouge like some do
in repair shops.  This too easily damages the facing and table, rounds
the side rails, and heat the mouthpiece.

If the mouthpiece is silver plated, it can be touched up with a �brush
plater�.  There are also solutions for plating gold and other materials.

If there are indentions from teeth wear, I fill the grooves with Devcon
5 minute epoxy.  The clear epoxy will show through with whatever color
of the mouthpiece material, and will be almost invisible.  When fully
hard, I file smooth, then sand with 600, then 800, then 1000 paper.
Finally I polish with the compound.  I cover the area with a Runyon
clear mouthpiece patch.

NOW the mouthpiece looks as good as it will play.

Paul Coats


boptonetom wrote:

>  I'm just a beginner with this mouthpiece work but I thought of
> sharing this one experience I had with trying make table straight on
> this metal Link I'm working on:
>
> The table was crooked,didn't seal with any reed.I tried to sand it
> down a bit,shank or tip facing towards me,stroking away from me.That
> didn't work,I was getting VERY long facings.Then I tried to sand it
> down using circular motion with as even pressure as I could.The
> result was a straight table that seals with a reed.
>
> This is probably common knowledge but I thought of sharing it anyway
> because it seems to work.
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [click here]

>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

               http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Hi Keith,

Machines are tools and are often about giving the possibility of more
control rather than less in that they eliminate the necessity for the use of
gross muscles and so allow for the finer modulation of small muscles. It all
depends on how one uses them.

As a slightly oblique but not totally irrelevant example, many modern
aircraft would not by flyable without computer assistance. The aerodynamics
of the designs sacrifice stability for responsiveness, but that puts them
beyond the range of unaided control. But it is not the computer flying the
plane, it is the pilot with computer assist. The human decides what he wants
the plane to do and the computer takes care of a myriad of small adjustments
to allow him/her to do that. And using the computer modern aircraft can be
flown in ways impossible before.

Likewise my little Dremel drill is not in charge of deciding how I'm going
to reshape the baffle on my steel Berg Larsen, but with me guiding it it
sure makes the job easier than if I had to try to accomplish the same thing
with files and sandpaper--at least in the earlier stages where a lot of
material has to be removed. And oftentimes, with its small abrasive bit, it
gives me much finer control than would be possible using non-mechanized hand
tools.

I would never advocate trying to finish a reface with machines, but if there
is a relatively major correction to be made in early stages in very hard
material then it seems to me that machines can save me a lot of work, and
sometimes get the job started better than could be done without them. And
down the road if machines are developed that allow me to flatten a table or
even up rails or cut a more accurate facing curve than I can do by hand then
I think it would be stupid not to use them. Whatever helps me accomplish my
goal should be used IMO.

But when the machine, through design, incompatability, etc. starts to
compromise my ability to control the result then clearly it is time to
change machines or go to that finest (or at least most directly
controllable) of machines, the hand.

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Straightening the table


> >>>It sure seems like a nice idea to just be able to apply
> the pressure and let a machine do the moving....
>
> Then it would not be hand facing.  Machines are good to a point.  That is
> how nearly all mouthpieces are made (but we all know that, I hope).
>
> But you desire some kind of machine or jig assisted table flattening gismo
> that you can configure to take a little off where you want it to.  Just
> about any such device is going to suffer the same problems as the blank
> making machines.  Slop in the mechanism, operator set-up, tool wear.
>
> A good strategy (design goal), good guaging (evaluation, feedback), good
> tools and skilled hand work will always yield superior results.  The key
is
> to get good enough at this that your are indeed better than a machine.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>>>The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter table.  

Paul, Did you mean to say a shorter facing, longer table?

Toby, I think I agree with all you said.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Flat tables ARE achievable with hand work.  Man, I DO need to do a
movie!

Paul


Keith Bradbury wrote:

>  >>>It sure seems like a nice idea to just be able to apply
> the pressure and let a machine do the moving....
>
> Then it would not be hand facing.  Machines are good to a point.  That
> is
> how nearly all mouthpieces are made (but we all know that, I hope).
>
> But you desire some kind of machine or jig assisted table flattening
> gismo
> that you can configure to take a little off where you want it to.
> Just
> about any such device is going to suffer the same problems as the
> blank
> making machines.  Slop in the mechanism, operator set-up, tool wear.
>
> A good strategy (design goal), good guaging (evaluation, feedback),
> good
> tools and skilled hand work will always yield superior results.  The
> key is
> to get good enough at this that your are indeed better than a machine.
>
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Excuse me.  You are correct.  The effect of flattening a table should
result in a shorter FACING, and the table longer.  Then material has to
be removed at the �break� and the facing lengthened back the original
specifications.

Paul


Keith Bradbury wrote:

>  >>>The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter
> table.
>
> Paul, Did you mean to say a shorter facing, longer table?
>
> Toby, I think I agree with all you said.
>
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Paul,

thanks for the many tips you provided in this message.

regards,
Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Coats [mailto:tenorman@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 7:27 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table


The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter table.
The more material taken off, the more the table is shortened.  But that
is really an abrupt angle, not a curve that flows smoothly into the
tangent (table).  Then the facing has to be reworked.

The method I use, I grasp the mouthpiece between my thumb and fingers
along the side of the mouthpiece, tip away from me.  Actually, the glass
plate and mouthpiece are in front of me at about a 45 degree angle, but
in line with my natural arm angle.  I rest my index finger directly on
top of the mouthpiece at about the center of the table to apply pressure
directly down.

I draw the mouthpiece in a straight line.  I never push toward the
facing, always draw the mouthpiece in the direction of the shank.

If you move the mouthpiece in a circular motion, you run the risk of
rounding the sides up, making a slightly convex table.

For MOST work, flattening the table and working the facing, I use 600
grit silicon carbide paper.  Only if I must take a lot of material off
the table do I use 400 grit.  With each stroke, I move to a new, clean
area of the paper.  I don't try to keep using loaded up paper, it does a
poor job.

For very fine adjustments of the facing, such as trying to even a high
spot in the middle of the facing, I use 800 grit.

To take file marks out of the baffle, I use some 800 paper wrapped
around the file.

I tear 1000 and 1200 grit paper into narrow ¼" (7mm) strips for
polishing the baffle further.  The technique here is to position the
strip in the mouthpiece, and apply pressure to the baffle lightly with
my thumb, while holding the mouthpiece, and drawing the strip of paper
out with my other hand.  The strip of paper is drawn straight out, not
pulled against the tip rail.  Pulling it straight out it will never
touch the tip rail, which is angled down away from the paper.

To do a final polish on the baffle, I use a tool shown to me by Santy
Runyon.  I cut a ¼" wood dowel about 6" (150 mm) long.   On the end I
trim a flat spot about 1" (25 mm).  I glue a rectangle of 16" sheet cork
on the flat spot, and on top of the cork, a piece of chamois.  Then I
use a plastic polish, with a little water, to finish polish the baffle.
Keeping the angle of the polishing tool up will prevent it from touching
and damaging the tip rail.

To polish the table and facing it is NOT necessary to use any
compounds.  This is very simple...

Simply turn the sheet of 600 or 800 paper grit side down... the backing
up.  There is enough carbide dust in the paper to polish well.  A few
light strokes, as described above for flattening the table, will put a
nice sheen on the table and remove any residual marks.  Then a light
pass, lifting the back of the mouthpiece, polishing along the facing and
tip will put a nice shine on those surfaces, too.  I do no other
polishing on the table.  This is MORE than sufficient to give a great
seal and a professional look.  The high polish will not make it play
better, and this step may be skipped, but it is easy to do.  Appearance
means a lot to the customer.

While I am working on it, I take a few minutes to HAND POLISH the
outside.  I simply use a soft cloth and the same plastic polish.  I do
NOT buff mouthpieces on the power cloth wheels with rouge like some do
in repair shops.  This too easily damages the facing and table, rounds
the side rails, and heat the mouthpiece.

If the mouthpiece is silver plated, it can be touched up with a "brush
plater".  There are also solutions for plating gold and other materials.

If there are indentions from teeth wear, I fill the grooves with Devcon
5 minute epoxy.  The clear epoxy will show through with whatever color
of the mouthpiece material, and will be almost invisible.  When fully
hard, I file smooth, then sand with 600, then 800, then 1000 paper.
Finally I polish with the compound.  I cover the area with a Runyon
clear mouthpiece patch.

NOW the mouthpiece looks as good as it will play.

Paul Coats


boptonetom wrote:

>  I'm just a beginner with this mouthpiece work but I thought of
> sharing this one experience I had with trying make table straight on
> this metal Link I'm working on:
>
> The table was crooked,didn't seal with any reed.I tried to sand it
> down a bit,shank or tip facing towards me,stroking away from me.That
> didn't work,I was getting VERY long facings.Then I tried to sand it
> down using circular motion with as even pressure as I could.The
> result was a straight table that seals with a reed.
>
> This is probably common knowledge but I thought of sharing it anyway
> because it seems to work.
>
>
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>
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

               http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Keith/Paul,

I had the same thought - that flattening the table would make it
longer, not shorter.

regards,
Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 12:20 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table


>>>The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter table.  

Paul, Did you mean to say a shorter facing, longer table?

Toby, I think I agree with all you said.

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Here's a question--is the part of the mpc past the table, onto the rails,
but before the break of the facing curve still called the table? I assume
so:  the fact that it's open to the window doesn't change how the reed
vibrates (meaning not on the flat part of the mpc).

Paul is right--you can achieve a flat table by hand, even on hard metal
mpcs, but it takes some skill not to create a convex surface. You have to
make sure that you apply steady pressure during the whole stroke, and it is
indeed a lot easier if you let the whole flat of the talbe help you. I also
pull the piece towards me (pulling gives more control but less power than
pushing--that's why Japanese carpenter's saws always cut on the pull.
Something we could learn from...) Circular strokes are almost guaranteed to
give you a table that is convex from side to side. To equalize the cut I
also siwtch the mpc around. I've found that for me at least stroking with
the shank to the back usually takes off more material at the heel of the
table. Usually that is desirable since it doesn't change the facing break as
much. But if the rails are uneven sometimes I find it valuable to turn the
mpc around so that the tip is facing backward, which then tends to take more
off at the top of the table where the window starts.

Do any of you guys find that after you flatten the table and take off all
those machining marks that the reed tends to slip around more than before?
That's been a problem on a couple of metal pieces that I flattened. I was
thinking about roughing up the table a bit with a dremel (except at the top
of the table where the reed needs to seal)...but I haven't had the guts
since they are playing so well...

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rawlings, Peter" <Peter.Rawlings@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table


> Keith/Paul,
>
> I had the same thought - that flattening the table would make it
> longer, not shorter.
>
> regards,
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 12:20 AM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Straightening the table
>
>
> >>>The effect of flattening the table SHOULD result in a shorter table.
>
> Paul, Did you mean to say a shorter facing, longer table?
>
> Toby, I think I agree with all you said.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> Here's a question--is the part of the mpc past the table, onto the 
rails,
> but before the break of the facing curve still called the table? 

I think so too.  I guess we could call it the "flat section of the 
rails before the facing starts" if we need to zero in on it.

> 
> Do any of you guys find that after you flatten the table and take 
off all
> those machining marks that the reed tends to slip around more than 
before?

To some extent, since the ridges are no longer gripping the reed.  
But I would not consider it real slippery.  If it is, I usually look 
for (and find) a slightly convex table.  The reed pivots and slides 
on the high spot.

I think taking a Dremel to the table to rough it up would not be a 
good idea.  If anything, you can try some coarse sandpaper.  But I 
would not do this either.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@...> wrote:
>
Circular strokes are almost guaranteed to
> give you a table that is convex from side to side.

This discussion/question may have been answered in a later post, but I
haven't gotten there yet.  So, . . . .  In a past life, when I was
working in a machine shop, I used to have to work on flat pieces to
remove machine marks and I used to use a "figure eight" stroke.  To
the best of my knowledge, the pieces used to remain quite flat.  I
haven't tried it on any mouthpieces, yet, as I haven't the guts to
start on any.  The day is getting closer.  I am measuring a lot.  Has
anyone used this method and does it keep the table flat?

Thank you,

David

> 
> This discussion/question may have been answered in a later post, but I
> haven't gotten there yet.  So, . . . .  In a past life, when I was
> working in a machine shop, I used to have to work on flat pieces to
> remove machine marks and I used to use a "figure eight" stroke.  To
> the best of my knowledge, the pieces used to remain quite flat.  I
> haven't tried it on any mouthpieces, yet, as I haven't the guts to
> start on any.  The day is getting closer.  I am measuring a lot.  Has
> anyone used this method and does it keep the table flat?
> 

When flattening a MP table, there is a tendency for the leading edge to dig
into the sandpaper.  You need to grip the MP in a way to compensate for
this "moment" force.  When drawing heel first, you need to lift the heel
some.  

A figure 8 or circular stoke would work well on metal plates.  More surface
area and not as tall as a mouthpiece.  But they will be prone to creating
convex tables on mouthpieces.


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