In a previous question I asked, Keith described how to figure out how 
much baffle one might want to place into a mouthpiece using temporary 
material like putty or playdough, I used non toxic modeling clay with 
plastic instruments- a kit for kids to make molds I found in a craft 
store section. How does the more permanent epoxy material affect the 
sound? Does the type of epoxy affect this? Is epoxy permanent or can 
it be taken out or modified? Which type of epoxy is best? Plumbers? 
Isn't it toxic?  

I have not noticed a difference in tone when going from a soft temporary putty to a harder epoxy.  As long as the shape is reasonably similar, I think it sounds the same.
 
Epoxies are generally poisonous when they are in their separate parts and inert when thoroughly mixed and cured.  You will have to ask the manufacturer of the particular brand you are using,


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In the pictures section, I think Chambers folder, I posted a picture of
the packaging from the epoxy putty I used.  Both are available from
Walmart.  The Quicksteel was in the automotive section, the other was in
the plumbing or hardware section.  They are non-poisonous when hard, as
are most all epoxies.

Paul


Keith Bradbury wrote:

>  I have not noticed a difference in tone when going from a soft
> temporary putty to a harder epoxy.  As long as the shape is reasonably
> similar, I think it sounds the same. Epoxies are generally poisonous
> when they are in their separate parts and inert when thoroughly mixed
> and cured.  You will have to ask the manufacturer of the particular
> brand you are using,
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>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

               http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Many epoxies contain xeroestrogens (notably alpha bisphenol)--estrogen mimicing chems that have been implicated in things like testicular cancers and falling sperm counts, and which do their dirty work in exteremely small dosages--parts per billion. However these usually affect developing endocrine systems (children and fetuses) and toxicity per se is low. Stephen Howard put the question of safety to the makers of JB Weld and while they were vague they did say specifically that it would be better if it didn't come into contact with the mouth, even after it is completely set.

But I can't imagine that there would be a problem using epoxy for a baffle, as there is never direct oral contact with that part of the mpc. I would definitely think twice or three times though before using it to fill in tooth grooves or reconstruct tips, etc.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 2:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] baffle material


  I have not noticed a difference in tone when going from a soft temporary putty to a harder epoxy.  As long as the shape is reasonably similar, I think it sounds the same.

  Epoxies are generally poisonous when they are in their separate parts and inert when thoroughly mixed and cured.  You will have to ask the manufacturer of the particular brand you are using,


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  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

  To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

>>Many epoxies contain xeroestrogens (notably alpha bisphenol)--estrogen mimicking chems that have been implicated in things like testicular cancers<<
 
I have been wondering about that, especially since a noted mouthpiece technician who touted the use of this material recently died of a very bad and aggressive cancer.
 
Some years ago, I had Ernie Northway make a custom mouthpiece for me. It arrived with  a rollover baffle made of a material which was the same color as the mouthpiece. I wonder what that material was.



 

Toby, thanks for this info. So if epoxies should be
avoided for tips, etc. what should we be using
instead?

I wonder if it is possible for toxins to leach out of
the baffle, combine with the moisture (condensation
and saliva) which could get absorbed into the reed.

I must say that I often think of what happened to JVW
and wonder if there was any connection to the
materials used in the work he did.

Stencilman

The estrogen mimics apparently wreak havoc only on developing endocrine
systems, setting the stage for endocrine imbalances that lead to later
problems. AFAIK they are not carcinogenic as such. I really doubt that there
would be any problem using epoxies as baffle material. You could also coat
them with a sealant if you were really worried, although I don't know what
would be recommendable. Superglue, although it is very nasty before it sets,
is totally inert afterwards.

I was thinking that it would be worthwhile investigating dental supply
houses for various plastics and/or epoxies. If they are used in the mouth
for the long term I would guess that they must be safe. The white stuff that
is used for temporary fillings (set by ultraviolet light) would be perfect.
Plus there are lots of dental sealants that could be applied over epoxies
that are questionable.

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Lloyd" <jg_lloyd@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] baffle material


> Toby, thanks for this info. So if epoxies should be
> avoided for tips, etc. what should we be using
> instead?
>
> I wonder if it is possible for toxins to leach out of
> the baffle, combine with the moisture (condensation
> and saliva) which could get absorbed into the reed.
>
> I must say that I often think of what happened to JVW
> and wonder if there was any connection to the
> materials used in the work he did.
>
> Stencilman
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I seem to recall that Phil Barone uses a dental epoxy for the bite plates of 
his metal mouthpieces.

>I was thinking that it would be worthwhile investigating dental supply
>houses for various plastics and/or epoxies. If they are used in the mouth
>for the long term I would guess that they must be safe. The white stuff 
>that
>is used for temporary fillings (set by ultraviolet light) would be perfect.
>Plus there are lots of dental sealants that could be applied over epoxies
>that are questionable.

_________________________________________________________________
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Back in message 366, Phil responded:

>>>Mike, there's a lot of stuff you can use but I use Serfcote. Same 
stuff Dukoff and Wolf Tayne uses. Phil

We did not find any "Serfcote" but did find "Surfcoat" which looks 
like it could be the stuff.   It is not a Dental Epoxy.

I did some google searches and found the following sites,
which may be of interest:

searching for Dental Epoxy, found:
http://www.eagerplastics.com/85215.htm

searching for Dental Acrylic, found:
http://www.fxsupply.com/printshop/PDF_docs/GC-5pg4.pdf

And, lastly, searching for "nontoxic epoxy", found the following site most interesting:
http://es.epa.gov/techinfo/facts/navy/navy-fs1.html

-Peter


Peter Rawlings
ADC IP Cable Division

Peter.Rawlings@...

Learn about ADC - The Broadband Company at www.adc.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:15 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: baffle material - bite plate


Back in message 366, Phil responded:

>>>Mike, there's a lot of stuff you can use but I use Serfcote. Same 
stuff Dukoff and Wolf Tayne uses. Phil

We did not find any "Serfcote" but did find "Surfcoat" which looks 
like it could be the stuff.   It is not a Dental Epoxy.



Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Just found this, too, regarding
CarGo Chemicals; QuikSteel Epoxy Putty & Paste:

"8. Is QUIKSTEEL EPOXY PUTTY safe to use on drinking water pipes and
holding tanks? Yes. QUIKSTEEL EPOXY PUTTY is certified safe by NSF
International for use on drinking water pipes, holding tanks, and all
drinking water systems. QUIKSTEEL is nontoxic."

For the full text, goto: http://www.cargochemical.com/prodques.htm

-Peter



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Rawlings, Peter"
<Peter.Rawlings@a...> wrote:
> I did some google searches and found the following sites,
> which may be of interest:
> 
> searching for Dental Epoxy, found:
> http://www.eagerplastics.com/85215.htm
> 
> searching for Dental Acrylic, found:
> http://www.fxsupply.com/printshop/PDF_docs/GC-5pg4.pdf
> 
> And, lastly, searching for "nontoxic epoxy", found the following
site most interesting:
> http://es.epa.gov/techinfo/facts/navy/navy-fs1.html
> 
> -Peter
> 

The two epoxies I use are the CarGo QuikSteel and a plumbing epoxy by
Loctite.  Both appear to be identical but for color.  One is black, one
dries a pale gray-blue.  Both are recommended for drinking water
plumbing.

See the photo section, Chamber Work folder, EpoxyPutty.jpg

When I use epoxies for filling teeth marks in the beak, I use Devcon 5
minute.  After filing, sanding, and polishing smooth, I cover it with a
clear patch.

Paul


Peter Rawlings wrote:

>  Just found this, too, regarding
> CarGo Chemicals; QuikSteel Epoxy Putty & Paste:
>
> "8. Is QUIKSTEEL EPOXY PUTTY safe to use on drinking water pipes and
> holding tanks? Yes. QUIKSTEEL EPOXY PUTTY is certified safe by NSF
> International for use on drinking water pipes, holding tanks, and all
> drinking water systems. QUIKSTEEL is nontoxic."
>
> For the full text, goto: http://www.cargochemical.com/prodques.htm
>
> -Peter
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Rawlings, Peter"
> <Peter.Rawlings@a...> wrote:
> > I did some google searches and found the following sites,
> > which may be of interest:
> >
> > searching for Dental Epoxy, found:
> > http://www.eagerplastics.com/85215.htm
> >
> > searching for Dental Acrylic, found:
> > http://www.fxsupply.com/printshop/PDF_docs/GC-5pg4.pdf
> >
> > And, lastly, searching for "nontoxic epoxy", found the following
> site most interesting:
> > http://es.epa.gov/techinfo/facts/navy/navy-fs1.html
> >
> > -Peter
> >
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [click here]

>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

A quick note: the dental epoxy you found is for casting and as such is not
intended for oral contact.

Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rawlings, Peter" <Peter.Rawlings@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 3:40 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: baffle material - bite plate


> I did some google searches and found the following sites,
> which may be of interest:
>
> searching for Dental Epoxy, found:
> http://www.eagerplastics.com/85215.htm
>
> searching for Dental Acrylic, found:
> http://www.fxsupply.com/printshop/PDF_docs/GC-5pg4.pdf
>
> And, lastly, searching for "nontoxic epoxy", found the following site most
interesting:
> http://es.epa.gov/techinfo/facts/navy/navy-fs1.html
>
> -Peter
>
>
> Peter Rawlings
> ADC IP Cable Division
>
> Peter.Rawlings@...
>
> Learn about ADC - The Broadband Company at www.adc.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:15 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: baffle material - bite plate
>
>
> Back in message 366, Phil responded:
>
> >>>Mike, there's a lot of stuff you can use but I use Serfcote. Same
> stuff Dukoff and Wolf Tayne uses. Phil
>
> We did not find any "Serfcote" but did find "Surfcoat" which looks
> like it could be the stuff.   It is not a Dental Epoxy.
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

HI,
I have a selmer classique metal c* soprano m/p which I am modifying 
slightly.
I have opened the tip slightly and find that it is now to my liking, 
however I would like to put some material into the m/p to make the 
baffle less steep(to give the m/p more brightness). At present the 
baffle has a shelf about 1/4" from the tip which then falls steeply. 
At present the m/p is not bright enough for me. I have put a small 
amount of putty into the m/p to reduce the steepness somewhat and 
this has nicely made the piece brighter and more to my liking.
can you suggest a safe material that I can use to permanently form 
this raising of the baffle area as it drops into the bore. The amount 
of putty I used was no more than the size of a pea which I pressed 
down and shaped to suit.
As I said earlier the m/p plays really well it just lacks a little 
brightness.
your comments will be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards. Peter

--- pjhmusic2004 <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
...can you suggest a safe material that I can use to permanently form 
this raising of the baffle area as it drops into the bore.

I use a Plumber's epoxy putty by Oatey.  I get it at Home Depot in the US.





	
		
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Back around message #2478, there was some discussion about dental 
acrylics as a fill material or bite plate material. This is the stuff 
they make dental appliances and retainers from. I did some minimal 
research and found that they used this stuff early on at beauty 
salons to attach fake nails.  Apparently, there were some health 
issues with it so they modified the acrylic to be safer for using in 
nail salons. So, the nail salons now use a modified acylic formula. 
Chemistry is not my forte, so I suppose you could do some research on 
the net and get some more details.

Anyway, I found that you can go to your local Walgreens and get a 
nail kit for about $6.00.  It includes a small bottle of liquid 
monomer and a small bottle of powdered polymer and a small brush. You 
dip the brush in the liquid, dap the wet brush in the powder then 
apply to the mouthpiece. I have built-up a slight roll-over baffle on 
a 1920's vintage Buescher hard rubber, large chamber, Bb tenor 
mouthpiece with this stuff.  It works pretty well. It does not take 
much powder to get it fairly thick. Prior to building up the baffle, 
I could not play any of the high palm keys. After the build up, the 
palms key can now speak. I picked up the clear acrylic kit.

Willis

Power Tone baffles are a quick and relatively easy way to add to the 
baffle.  They stay in place for a long time so long as the baffle is 
flat where they are applied.

There's a knack to placing them as the effect is greater the closer 
you put it to the tip, but you don't want the reed banging into it as 
you play.

A relatively cheap (and not-messy) way to experiment without having 
to break out the epoxy.

http://www.wwbw.com/Power-Tone-Mouthpiece-Baffles-i85280.music

Granted, with epoxy, you can blend things over a distance and into 
the walls, etc.  But if you're simply looking to brighten things up a 
touch, I highly recommend these.