Mouthpiece Work / Mouthpiece plays "flat"
FROM: fgruenebaum (fgruenebaum)
SUBJECT: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
I own, and have owned this very expensive Sugal Grenadilla soprano sax mouthpiece. Since I bought it from Gary it has been flat, flat, flat. I have even sent it back to Gary and he's said there's nothing more he can do with it, it must be my embouchure/reed/instrument. I've had a number of my colleagues play on it and they agreed...it was simply built flat. Here's the question....should I simply sell it for a tremendous loss of money...you all know that these mpcs are all very overpriced, or should I attempt to bring it up to pitch? From what I've been reading, if I do try, then it will affect other aspects of the dynamics of the sound, etc. The mpc has a stop in the bore which allows it to go only so far onto the neck/cork.... Is this a lost cause? Help, and thanks, Fred
FROM: reidalf (Alf Reid [AST VT])
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Fred
You said "The mpc has a stop in the bore which allows it to go only so far onto the neck/cork...."
Did you remove the reed and LOOKED into the chamber to see if the end of the neck really touch this "stop" ?
Sometimes , as with my Selmer series II the sax has a metal ring with a diameter to large for some mouthpieces.
When you put on the mouthpiece it even feels as if it stops against a solid "stop" . In this case one only need
a correct reamer to remove material in the bore.
If your MPC really stops with the throat aginst the ring on sax neck , you have problems.
In this case your options depends on
1. How well does the mouthpiece play ( response and sound quality) ? If not great ....sell.
2. How close to in tune is it in the various registers ? The intonation "pattern" will dictate your action.
If you tell us more we can give better advice.
3. Is there a prominent throat which cause the "stop" ? No .. consider modifying. Yes .. removing a couple
of MM of the throat will change the character of the mouthpiece a lot.
4. What experience + tools do you have.
We would like to know more to give you better advice. Chamber size ? Have it been tried on other soprano saxes ?
Intonation pattern for low reg, mid reg and palm keys ?
I have confidence that this group will solve your problem . There is just so much experience !
Alf
-----Original Message-----
From: fgruenebaum [mailto:fgruenebaum@...]
Sent: 24 April 2003 19:00
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
I own, and have owned this very expensive Sugal Grenadilla soprano
sax mouthpiece. Since I bought it from Gary it has been flat, flat,
flat. I have even sent it back to Gary and he's said there's nothing
more he can do with it, it must be my embouchure/reed/instrument.
I've had a number of my colleagues play on it and they agreed...it
was simply built flat.
Here's the question....should I simply sell it for a tremendous loss
of money...you all know that these mpcs are all very overpriced, or
should I attempt to bring it up to pitch? From what I've been
reading, if I do try, then it will affect other aspects of the
dynamics of the sound, etc. Is this a lost cause?
Help, and thanks,
Fred
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FROM: fgruenebaum (Fred Gruenebaum)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Thank you so much for your speedy reply Alf.
The more questions you ask me, the more I am convinced this mpc is poorly conceived.
The bore ends right where the lay starts, so there's no more room to ream. As far as "how well does the piece play"? The answer to that is that because it plays so flat I couldn't really tell how good or bad it was. The sound was a good warm sound with plenty of "pop", a good centered sound. But, once again, I couldn't play it because I keep hearing how flat it is. Because I had it pushed totally onto the cork, it naturally threw the scale off, so it didn't play in tune with itself. The scale within the horn, on all the horns, were out of tune with itself, if you know what I mean. And yes, I played it on a number of very fine sopranos, it was totally consistent.
I thought that maybe there was a way to adjust the chamber/baffle/lay to bring the pitch up. Since I paid ($325.) so much for the piece I thought I would try to find out if there was a way to fix it. I sort of knew when I bought it 2 years ago that there was a problem. And Gary was not cooperative in trying to help solve the problem. So after hearing from you, I'll just go ahead and sell it on eBay. Maybe someone else can make it work. I'll attempt to sell it for $200....
In the meantime, am I the only one to have had bad experiences with Gary of "Sugal" fame?
Fred
You said "The mpc has a stop in the bore which allows it to go only so far onto the neck/cork...."
Did you remove the reed and LOOKED into the chamber to see if the end of the neck really touch this "stop" ?
Sometimes , as with my Selmer series II the sax has a metal ring with a diameter to large for some mouthpieces.
When you put on the mouthpiece it even feels as if it stops against a solid "stop" . In this case one only need
a correct reamer to remove material in the bore.
If your MPC really stops with the throat aginst the ring on sax neck , you have problems.
In this case your options depends on
1. How well does the mouthpiece play ( response and sound quality) ? If not great ....sell.
2. How close to in tune is it in the various registers ? The intonation "pattern" will dictate your action.
If you tell us more we can give better advice.
3. Is there a prominent throat which cause the "stop" ? No .. consider modifying. Yes .. removing a couple
of MM of the throat will change the character of the mouthpiece a lot.
4. What experience + tools do you have.
We would like to know more to give you better advice. Chamber size ? Have it been tried on other soprano saxes ?
Intonation pattern for low reg, mid reg and palm keys ?
I have confidence that this group will solve your problem . There is just so much experience !
Alf
-----Original Message-----
From: fgruenebaum [mailto:fgruenebaum@socal.rr.com]
Sent: 24 April 2003 19:00
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
I own, and have owned this very expensive Sugal Grenadilla soprano
sax mouthpiece. Since I bought it from Gary it has been flat, flat,
flat. I have even sent it back to Gary and he's said there's nothing
more he can do with it, it must be my embouchure/reed/instrument.
I've had a number of my colleagues play on it and they agreed...it
was simply built flat.
Here's the question....should I simply sell it for a tremendous loss
of money...you all know that these mpcs are all very overpriced, or
should I attempt to bring it up to pitch? From what I've been
reading, if I do try, then it will affect other aspects of the
dynamics of the sound, etc. Is this a lost cause?
Help, and thanks,
Fred
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
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______________________________________________
"This information is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and
may contain private, confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material and may be subject
to confidentiality agreements.
Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or any other use of or taking of any action in
reliance upon this information, by persons or entities other than the intended recipient,
is prohibited.
If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all
storage media.
The company is neither liable for proper, complete transmission of the information contained
in this communication, any delay in its receipt or that the mail is virus-free"
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
One quicky test you can try is to put some temporary putty in the chamber. Play-Doh, Poster hanging putty, dental wax, etc. This would tend to fix the intonation but the high notes will most likely still play flat. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com
FROM: fgruenebaum (Fred Gruenebaum)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Thanks again for the info Keith,
Rather than fool around with that, I'll try and sell it on eBay.
Ciao,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
One quicky test you can try is to put some temporary putty in the chamber.
Play-Doh, Poster hanging putty, dental wax, etc. This would tend to fix
the intonation but the high notes will most likely still play flat.
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FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
>From: "Fred Gruenebaum" <fgruenebaum@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat" >Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:49 -0700 > >In the meantime, am I the only one to have had bad experiences with Gary of >"Sugal" fame? Oh, please, let's not go there... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
FROM: fgruenebaum (Fred Gruenebaum)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Hi Mike,
Well....your reply was mystifying. As a neophyte in all this with mpcs, a remark like yours makes me think I've been living in a vacuum. Obviously you have something to say about this subject. Why don't you share it a little with me so I too can be "one of the boys"?
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ruhl
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
>From: "Fred Gruenebaum" <fgruenebaum@....com>
>Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:49 -0700
>
>In the meantime, am I the only one to have had bad experiences with Gary of
>"Sugal" fame?
Oh, please, let's not go there...
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FROM: realbootman (rbooth)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
It is a subject best left alone due to it being very murky waters indeed. Later God Bless Bootman Richard Booth www.bootmanmusic.com -----Original Message----- From: Fred Gruenebaum [mailto:fgruenebaum@...] Sent: Saturday, 26 April 2003 7:28 AM To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat" Hi Mike, Well....your reply was mystifying. As a neophyte in all this with mpcs, a remark like yours makes me think I've been living in a vacuum. Obviously you have something to say about this subject. Why don't you share it a little with me so I too can be "one of the boys"? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ruhl <mailto:mikeruhl@...> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat" >From: "Fred Gruenebaum" <fgruenebaum@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat" >Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:49 -0700 > >In the meantime, am I the only one to have had bad experiences with Gary of >"Sugal" fame? Oh, please, let's not go there... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=247865.3003379.4507215.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705 032198:HM/A=1482387/R=0/*http:/ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vaG0xLmRhd=1051306098 %3eM=247865.3003379.4507215.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705032198:HM/A=148238 7/R=1=1051306098%3eM=247865.3003379.4507215.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=170503 2198:HM/A=1482387/R=2> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=247865.3003379.4507215.2595810/D=egrou pmail/S=:HM/A=1482387/rand=813511570> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
FROM: fgruenebaum (Fred Gruenebaum)
SUBJECT: Re: Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Okey-dokey...."a word to the wise is sufficient" and thanks...........
----- Original Message -----
From: rbooth
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
It is a subject best left alone due to it being very murky waters indeed.
Later
God Bless
Bootman
Richard Booth
www.bootmanmusic.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Gruenebaum [mailto:fgruenebaum@...]
Sent: Saturday, 26 April 2003 7:28 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
Hi Mike,
Well....your reply was mystifying. As a neophyte in all this with mpcs, a remark like yours makes me think I've been living in a vacuum. Obviously you have something to say about this subject. Why don't you share it a little with me so I too can be "one of the boys"?
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ruhl
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
>From: "Fred Gruenebaum" <fgruenebaum@...>
>Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Mouthpiece plays "flat"
>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:49 -0700
>
>In the meantime, am I the only one to have had bad experiences with Gary of
>"Sugal" fame?
Oh, please, let's not go there...
_________________________________________________________________
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