Hi group,

I was cruising the alt.music.sax newsgroup the other day and ran across this about Rovner ligs:

> is the rovner ligature any good ?
>

For Classical maybe. For modern Music absolutely not. It was a good thing in
the early days of high baffle metal mouthpieces but not today. It violates
all rules of physics when used with a good metal mouthpiece. The function of
the ligature is to hold the reed without preventing the mouthpiece from
amplifying the sound force created by the air stream vibrating the reed. The
Rovner and the others that were stolen from it, muffle the vibrating
characteristics and therefore the amplification properties of the
mouthpiece.

If you need a Rovner type lig you should think about getting a better
Mouthpiece.


I was nonplussed to find that this was from Jeffrey Powell, the President and Chief engineer of Guardala mpcs.

Can any of you make any sense out of this? First he's saying that the vibrations of the mpc amplify the pulses from the reed that couple with the air column to produce the standing pressure waves in the bore. Backus showed that the tip of the mpc moves about 3 microns for a 100 micron movement of the reed (on a clarinet, but it should be aobut the same). This is -30 dB, not nothing but not much either. Certainly not enough to act as much of an amplifier for the pressure waves formed in the mpc. The mpc apparently vibrates in several different modes as well, and not all of the vibrations would necessarily be constructive.

Then he seems to be saying that a flexible lig inhibits the vibrations of the mpc. It seems to me that first of all being flexible it would inhibit them less than a metal band clamped around the thing. And this ignores the fact that it is the tip of the mpc that vibrates in any case, where there is no lig to inhibit it.

I would dismiss this out of hand if it were not from a respected mpc maker. Any of you guys have any comments?

On to something else completely. I was wondering if any of you had ever tried undercutting the side rails to create a wider baffle. Do you think this would do no more than to be equivalent to lowering the baffle (more volume under the reed), thus darkening the sound? I was thinking of experimenting on an old mpc but wondered if anyone had actually tried it.

Thanks for listening,

Toby

Bah. I would dismiss the comments out of hand.  Mouthpiece makers have a
wealth of experiance.  But I have not seen any with credentials, data or
whatever to back up these kinds of comments.

Its a $16 ligature (forcriesakes).  You try it and either like what it does
or you dont.  I love physics, especially when properly applied.  Dont tell
me I need a new $$$ mouthpiece because I'm fond of a $16 ligature.

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From Toby's email, my comments, Paul.

Hi group,

I was cruising the alt.music.sax newsgroup the other day and ran across
this about Rovner ligs:

> is the rovner ligature any good ?
>

"For Classical maybe. For modern Music absolutely not. It was a good
thing in the early days of high baffle metal mouthpieces but not today.
It violates all rules of physics when used with a good metal mouthpiece.
"

Paul's comment--I did not know there were any official rules for
ligatures, or that they differentiated from classical to jazz.

"The function of the ligature is to hold the reed without preventing the
mouthpiece from amplifying the sound force created by the air stream
vibrating the reed. The Rovner and the others that were stolen from it,
muffle the vibrating characteristics and therefore the amplification
properties of the mouthpiece."

Paul's comment--The primary function of ANY ligature is to hold the reed
in position without slipping.  Everything else is secondary.  The Rovner
does this well, and as amy people will argue that a flexible lig will
ALLOW a reed to vibrate better, adding to the overall tone.

"If you need a Rovner type lig you should think about getting a better
Mouthpiece."

Toby's comment--I was nonplussed to find that this was from Jeffrey
Powell, the President and Chief engineer of Guardala mpcs.

Can any of you make any sense out of this? First he's saying that the
vibrations of the mpc amplify the pulses from the reed that couple with
the air column to produce the standing pressure waves in the bore.
Backus showed that the tip of the mpc moves about 3 microns for a 100
micron movement of the reed (on a clarinet, but it should be aobut the
same). This is -30 dB, not nothing but not much either. Certainly not
enough to act as much of an amplifier for the pressure waves formed in
the mpc. The mpc apparently vibrates in several different modes as well,
and not all of the vibrations would necessarily be constructive.

Then he seems to be saying that a flexible lig inhibits the vibrations
of the mpc. It seems to me that first of all being flexible it would
inhibit them less than a metal band clamped around the thing. And this
ignores the fact that it is the tip of the mpc that vibrates in any
case, where there is no lig to inhibit it.

I would dismiss this out of hand if it were not from a respected mpc
maker. Any of you guys have any comments?

Paul's comment--I would dismiss it out of hand.

On to something else completely. I was wondering if any of you had ever
tried undercutting the side rails to create a wider baffle. Do you think
this would do no more than to be equivalent to lowering the baffle (more
volume under the reed), thus darkening the sound? I was thinking of
experimenting on an old mpc but wondered if anyone had actually tried
it.

Thanks for listening,

Toby

Paul's comment--I have seen many older mouthpieces made like this.

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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Seems rather a ridiculous comment. I was always under the understanding
that the lig held the reed tightly against the mpc and thus allowed the
reed to vibrate. Metal ligs, Rovner ligs and various other fancy ligs
all do the same job, if they don't hold the reed on then they are
useless.

The comments sound improbable, sales pitch is the term that springs to
mind. Anagramatic Carp is the other thought. All you need to do is to
play the different ligs and work out for yourself which one works best.

Bootman

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Coats [mailto:tenorman@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2003 11:19 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] A few miscellaneous things

From Toby's email, my comments, Paul.

Hi group,

I was cruising the alt.music.sax newsgroup the other day and ran across
this about Rovner ligs:

> is the rovner ligature any good ?
>

"For Classical maybe. For modern Music absolutely not. It was a good
thing in the early days of high baffle metal mouthpieces but not today.
It violates all rules of physics when used with a good metal mouthpiece.
"

Paul's comment--I did not know there were any official rules for
ligatures, or that they differentiated from classical to jazz.

"The function of the ligature is to hold the reed without preventing the
mouthpiece from amplifying the sound force created by the air stream
vibrating the reed. The Rovner and the others that were stolen from it,
muffle the vibrating characteristics and therefore the amplification
properties of the mouthpiece."

Paul's comment--The primary function of ANY ligature is to hold the reed
in position without slipping.  Everything else is secondary.  The Rovner
does this well, and as amy people will argue that a flexible lig will
ALLOW a reed to vibrate better, adding to the overall tone.

"If you need a Rovner type lig you should think about getting a better
Mouthpiece."

Toby's comment--I was nonplussed to find that this was from Jeffrey
Powell, the President and Chief engineer of Guardala mpcs.

Can any of you make any sense out of this? First he's saying that the
vibrations of the mpc amplify the pulses from the reed that couple with
the air column to produce the standing pressure waves in the bore.
Backus showed that the tip of the mpc moves about 3 microns for a 100
micron movement of the reed (on a clarinet, but it should be aobut the
same). This is -30 dB, not nothing but not much either. Certainly not
enough to act as much of an amplifier for the pressure waves formed in
the mpc. The mpc apparently vibrates in several different modes as well,
and not all of the vibrations would necessarily be constructive.

Then he seems to be saying that a flexible lig inhibits the vibrations
of the mpc. It seems to me that first of all being flexible it would
inhibit them less than a metal band clamped around the thing. And this
ignores the fact that it is the tip of the mpc that vibrates in any
case, where there is no lig to inhibit it.

I would dismiss this out of hand if it were not from a respected mpc
maker. Any of you guys have any comments?

Paul's comment--I would dismiss it out of hand.

On to something else completely. I was wondering if any of you had ever
tried undercutting the side rails to create a wider baffle. Do you think
this would do no more than to be equivalent to lowering the baffle (more
volume under the reed), thus darkening the sound? I was thinking of
experimenting on an old mpc but wondered if anyone had actually tried
it.

Thanks for listening,

Toby

Paul's comment--I have seen many older mouthpieces made like this.

                     Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT




--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.




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