Hello!
That was really interesting!!!
I�ve to put my tenor mouthpiece at the tip of the neck and the upper
register tends to be flat... Should I try to open the volume of the bore or
should I tune the length (or to get another longer construction with a more
open bore)?

Many greetings, Chriss



----- Original Message -----
From: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 7:04 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Digest Number 211



Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Intonation Tweaks
           From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:49:04 -0500
   From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...>
Subject: Intonation Tweaks

Subject:
          Intonation Tweaks
    Date:
          Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:30:45 -0800
    From:
          "Vidovic, Damir" <dvidovic@...>
      To:
          "Paul Coats" <tenorman@...>




Hi Paul!

I would be grateful if you could please elaborate on differences in
intonation effects
between pulling-out/pushing-in the mouthpiece versus the chamber size
enlargement/reduction. Since the latter action alters the chamber volume
only, while the
pulling-in/pushing-out tweaks the chamber volume AND the length, I have
been wondering
whether these 2 different modifications would alter the pitch of the
high notes (short
lengths) vs. the low notes (long lengths) in 2 distinct ways.

Best,

Damir

Damir:  YES!!! Exactly!  You have the right idea.  I HAVE fine tuned
intonation problems in this way.

For the saxophone to tune properly, the volume past the end of the neck
pipe must be the same as the missing section of the cone.  In fact, this
volume was used as a constant in the calculations of the bore and tone
hole placement in Adolf Sax's formulas in his patent.

If the mouthpiece has a small chamber volume.. and the bore of the
mouthpiece past the end of the neckpipe is certainly part of this
chamber volume, then usually the mouthpiece has to be pulled out so that
the resulting volume is correct, in order to make the C2 (middle C) tune
to the correct concert Bb pitch (with the Bb saxes).  Then the internal
volume of the mouthpiece is long, making a long air column.

This does not affect the low register, as the tuning for the low
register is by VOLUME.  BUT, in the high register, the upper notes, from
about A on up into the palm keys, will be flat.  The resulting air
column is too long.

Yes, tuning in the low register is by volume, tuning of the high
register is by length.  I was surprised to find this.  But I have done
repeated experiments to prove this.  I don't understand fully the
physics of why this is true, but it is.

If the mouthpiece has a large chamber volume, then the mouthpiece must
be pushed on very far onto the neck cork.  The low register tunes OK.
But the top notes in the upper register become very sharp, because the
air column is too short.

This shows up on soprano more than alto or lower saxes.  In fact, I made
a mouthpiece for one troublesome soprano in this manner. and this proves
what I said above.

I started with a Selmer S80 with F facing.  Using a �" diameter (12.7mm)
drill bit, I drilled into the bore, until the drill bit came up into the
window area.  Then I made a tube from �" diameter Delrin rod.  This rod
is sold by Ferree's Tools for making replacement clarinet tone holes
(for the open fingered holes).  I drilled through the middle of the rod
with a 5/16" bit, so that the walls of the resulting tube were
approximately 1 mm thick.

I cut various lengths of this tube, and inserted them into the bore,
pushing them up to the back of the chamber area.  By using different
length tubes, I made the mouthpiece have different chamber volumes.

With no tube, the high notes went sharp.  With a long tube, about 14mm
long, the high notes went flat.  Of course, with the long tube inside,
the mouthpiece had to be pulled out to tune the middle C.

By cutting off a little of the tube each time, and trying it, I quickly
found a length that gave good intonation.

Remember, for each volume change, the mouthpiece must be retuned, the
middle C (C2) to concert Bb.  And each time, the low register would be
good, and it was only the high notes in the upper register that were
affected.

This is easily seen with the Rico Graftonite soprano sax mouthpiece.
The chamber is much too large for any soprano I have ever tried it
with.  It must be pushed on the cork so far that it almost touches the
neck octave pip.  And it plays very sharp on the high notes.

When we first obtained our bass sax, everyone (who did not have a bass!)
told us we would need a "large chamber bass sax mouthpiece".  On the
other hand, we knew that many of the old pros used bari sax
mouthpieces.  With the large Woodwind mouthpiece, we had to push the
mouthpiece onto the cork so far it completely covered the cork.  The
palm key notes (both of them, D and Eb. no E or F. Hah!!!) were VERY
sharp.  With a smaller mouthpiece, a modified bari sax mouthpiece, the
mouthpiece fit in a more normal position on the cork, and the palm key
notes could be played in tune with little effort.

I hope this answers your question.  This is only one of the reasons that
not all mouthpieces work well with all saxes.

Paul


--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Generally, when a player has to pull the mouthpiece out very far, which
naturally makes the palm key notes flat, there are two possibilities:

(1) The most common problem, about 95% of the time, the player is using
too much embouchure pressure.  This is easily found out.  The player
should blow the mouthpiece only, no sax, no neckpipe, just the
mouthpiece.  Check the pitch that the player produces.  For tenor, it
should be G (concert pitch), one octave and a 5th above middle C on the
piano.  (for alto, A, one octave and a 6th above middle C of the piano;
for baritone sax, Eb, one octave and minor 3rd above middle C of the
piano; soprano sax, C#, two octaves and 1/2 step; clarinet, B, one
octave and major 7th above middle C)   I have seen players one full step
high, and even more.  They have difficulty with the low register, and
the high notes are very flat.

One clue that this is the problem is that the player has this problem
with other mouthpieces and saxes, too.

(2) Less common, but also possible, the player's mouthpiece has a
chamber that is too small for his sax.  He has to pull the mouthpiece
out very far to tune his tuning note.  Then, the mouthpiece is too long,
and the palm keys are flat.  This is much less common.  If the player
has the problem only with this mouthpiece, and not with other
mouthpieces, then the problem is this particular mouthpiece, and not the
player.

So, FIRST, try blowing just the mouthpiece.  Don't cheat and play a note
first to listen to.  Have another player assist you.  You blow the
mouthpiece, and let him find the pitch on the piano.  Report back what
you find to us here.

If you are producing a pitch very close to G on the piano with your
mouthpiece, then try some other mouthpieces.  If those can be positioned
on the cork more normally, and you can play the palm key notes in tune,
then you know the problem is in the mouthpiece.  So, only now would I
enlarge the chamber.  Just drilling a larger bore is a very inefficient
way to do this.  BUT, you can drill the bore the same diameter, bringing
the bore into the chamber are of the mouthpiece.  This leaves the baffle
and middle part of the chamber untouched, and will retain the
mouthpieces playing characteristics.

Paul

Chriss wrote:

>  Hello!
> That was really interesting!!!
> I�ve to put my tenor mouthpiece at the tip of the neck and the upper
> register tends to be flat... Should I try to open the volume of the
> bore or
> should I tune the length (or to get another longer construction with a
> more
> open bore)?
>
> Many greetings, Chriss
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 7:04 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Digest Number 211
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Intonation Tweaks
>            From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...>
>
>
> _
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:49:04 -0500
>    From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...>
> Subject: Intonation Tweaks
>
> Subject:
>           Intonation Tweaks
>     Date:
>           Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:30:45 -0800
>     From:
>           "Vidovic, Damir" <dvidovic@...>
>       To:
>           "Paul Coats" <tenorman@...>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Paul!
>
> I would be grateful if you could please elaborate on differences in
> intonation effects
> between pulling-out/pushing-in the mouthpiece versus the chamber size
> enlargement/reduction. Since the latter action alters the chamber
> volume
> only, while the
> pulling-in/pushing-out tweaks the chamber volume AND the length, I
> have
> been wondering
> whether these 2 different modifications would alter the pitch of the
> high notes (short
> lengths) vs. the low notes (long lengths) in 2 distinct ways.
>
> Best,
>
> Damir
>
> Damir:  YES!!! Exactly!  You have the right idea.  I HAVE fine tuned
> intonation problems in this way.
>
> For the saxophone to tune properly, the volume past the end of the
> neck
> pipe must be the same as the missing section of the cone.  In fact,
> this
> volume was used as a constant in the calculations of the bore and tone
>
> hole placement in Adolf Sax's formulas in his patent.
>
> If the mouthpiece has a small chamber volume.. and the bore of the
> mouthpiece past the end of the neckpipe is certainly part of this
> chamber volume, then usually the mouthpiece has to be pulled out so
> that
> the resulting volume is correct, in order to make the C2 (middle C)
> tune
> to the correct concert Bb pitch (with the Bb saxes).  Then the
> internal
> volume of the mouthpiece is long, making a long air column.
>
> This does not affect the low register, as the tuning for the low
> register is by VOLUME.  BUT, in the high register, the upper notes,
> from
> about A on up into the palm keys, will be flat.  The resulting air
> column is too long.
>
> Yes, tuning in the low register is by volume, tuning of the high
> register is by length.  I was surprised to find this.  But I have done
>
> repeated experiments to prove this.  I don't understand fully the
> physics of why this is true, but it is.
>
> If the mouthpiece has a large chamber volume, then the mouthpiece must
>
> be pushed on very far onto the neck cork.  The low register tunes OK.
> But the top notes in the upper register become very sharp, because the
>
> air column is too short.
>
> This shows up on soprano more than alto or lower saxes.  In fact, I
> made
> a mouthpiece for one troublesome soprano in this manner. and this
> proves
> what I said above.
>
> I started with a Selmer S80 with F facing.  Using a �" diameter
> (12.7mm)
> drill bit, I drilled into the bore, until the drill bit came up into
> the
> window area.  Then I made a tube from �" diameter Delrin rod.  This
> rod
> is sold by Ferree's Tools for making replacement clarinet tone holes
> (for the open fingered holes).  I drilled through the middle of the
> rod
> with a 5/16" bit, so that the walls of the resulting tube were
> approximately 1 mm thick.
>
> I cut various lengths of this tube, and inserted them into the bore,
> pushing them up to the back of the chamber area.  By using different
> length tubes, I made the mouthpiece have different chamber volumes.
>
> With no tube, the high notes went sharp.  With a long tube, about 14mm
>
> long, the high notes went flat.  Of course, with the long tube inside,
>
> the mouthpiece had to be pulled out to tune the middle C.
>
> By cutting off a little of the tube each time, and trying it, I
> quickly
> found a length that gave good intonation.
>
> Remember, for each volume change, the mouthpiece must be retuned, the
> middle C (C2) to concert Bb.  And each time, the low register would be
>
> good, and it was only the high notes in the upper register that were
> affected.
>
> This is easily seen with the Rico Graftonite soprano sax mouthpiece.
> The chamber is much too large for any soprano I have ever tried it
> with.  It must be pushed on the cork so far that it almost touches the
>
> neck octave pip.  And it plays very sharp on the high notes.
>
> When we first obtained our bass sax, everyone (who did not have a
> bass!)
> told us we would need a "large chamber bass sax mouthpiece".  On the
> other hand, we knew that many of the old pros used bari sax
> mouthpieces.  With the large Woodwind mouthpiece, we had to push the
> mouthpiece onto the cork so far it completely covered the cork.  The
> palm key notes (both of them, D and Eb. no E or F. Hah!!!) were VERY
> sharp.  With a smaller mouthpiece, a modified bari sax mouthpiece, the
>
> mouthpiece fit in a more normal position on the cork, and the palm key
>
> notes could be played in tune with little effort.
>
> I hope this answers your question.  This is only one of the reasons
> that
> not all mouthpieces work well with all saxes.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>
>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>
>
>
>
> _
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.