Mouthpiece Work / Re: Digest Number 190
FROM: philbarone2002 (Phil Barone)
SUBJECT: Re: Digest Number 190
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----- Original Message -----
From: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 3:16 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Digest Number 190
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> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. RE: Concave Table Pro/Con
> From: "Alf Reid [AST VT] " <alf.reid@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:44:10 +0200
> From: "Alf Reid [AST VT] " <alf.reid@...>
> Subject: RE: Concave Table Pro/Con
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Conncave or not ?
>
> I found that most reeds tend to lift at the sides , where the
rails meet the table as soon as they absorb moisture.
> I does not make sense as I too would expect the reed to exert
pressure against the ligature and deform
> at the end of the table. This is experienced on many reeds ,
when one starts to play the reed feels great ,
> 5 minutes later it feels "dead" with lots of resistance , the
low notes needs brute force to attack.
> If you look at the setup you can see light shining in between
MPC and reed , right up to the ligature.
>
> For many people this is the root cause of the high pitched
whistle (squeek) , which bothers them.
> Since the correct strenght of reed do not make a good seal it
feels (plays) like a reed 1 or 2 numbers higher,
> causing them to use lighter reeds . Ever thought why metal MPC
are more prone to squeeking ? My theory
> is that rubber MPC tables flexes a little whith ligature/ reed
pressure , causing a better seal. Rubber
> MPC normally have wide rails where the rails meet the table ,
this makes them less sensitive to reeds
> lifting their sides.
>
> I use all the mentioned methods to try and get a flat table
.... however I came to the conclusion it is almost impossible
> to get a perfectly flat table right up to all sides , using
sandpaper. Some people might think a table is flat but the
> next guy might disagree totally. How straight is your straight
edge ? how flat is my piece of glass ?
> This is the reason why I first create a slightly concave table,
then sand down and stop before all the
> concavity is gone, ESPECIALLY ON METAL MOUTHPIECES.
>
> If I look at photos of the Guardala laser trimmed MPC , I can
believe the tables might be flat, the edges looks
> razor sharp.
>
> Keep up the flat tables, I will practise more.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
> Sent: 08 March 2003 08:20
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
>
>
>
> Hi Keith and all,
>
> I went and had a look at all my mpcs re: table flatness. Another way to
judge this that I like is to lightly moisten the table and hold it flat up
underneath a (flat) piece of glass. It's then easy to see where the talbe
makes contact and where it doesn't, but bear in mind that the thickness of
the moisture layer can fill in slight irregularities.
>
> One perfect way to judge concavity is to give the table a couple of swipes
across some 2000 grit sandpaper pressed against a hard, flat surface and see
where the shine comes up. By that light almost all my metal pieces had a
slight concavity. But judging by the basic unevenness of the tables in
question (Beechler alto, Berg Larsen tenor, Brilhart bari) my guess is that
this is a bit of "insurance" for the mass makers to ensure that their sloppy
finishing doesn't include a high spot in the center, though I don't really
know for sure.
>
> On the other hand the hard rubber pieces I have all had reasonably flat
tables without any convexity (with the exception of an ancinet Berg Larsen
sop, which has a slight concavity). These range from some cheapies like a
Rico and a Lakey to my venerable and beloved MC Gregory. Probably much
easier to machine the softer material reasonably well
>
> The argument to hollow out a table so that the reed can swell into it
doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that if the fibers are going to
swell they will swell equally, not just in the center in such a way as to
lift the edges up and create problems. I've never had a problem with any of
the pieces whose tables I have flattened.
>
> As I say I think that creating a concavity in the table is just a
brute-foce approach to making sure there is no high spot near the center,
quicker and easier than finishing the table well.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> Toby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Keith <mailto:kwbradbury@...> Bradbury
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 11:52 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
>
> You can check if a table is flat or not by holding a straight edge
> across it and see if light gets under it. Check it along the width
> and length of the table. Some pieces are concave but provide a seal
> along the sides and end of the reed. The butt end of the table will
> look real high is there is concavity at the base of the window.
>
> The idea is that a concave table allows a cane reed to swell into the
> table. This would be an advantage over a flat table if the swelling
> would otherwise press against the table and lift up the reed in a way
> that causes an air leak. I suppose this could happen, but I have not
> observed this. But I virtually do not play on cane anymore. I think
> cane reeds held against a flat table just swell away from the table
> towards the ligature. This makes the ligature tighter and indents
> the reed some at the contact points.
>
> I did observe a concave table issue last night on a gig. I had the
> guy next to me try out a piece I had just finish for another client
> to see if he liked it. He slapped his reed on it and had a lot
> problems. Air was leaking under the reed. The mouthpiece failed the
> vacuum seal test. I do not use the seal test, but my pieces usually
> pass it.
>
> It took me a while but I determined that his broken-in cane reed had
> deformed to the large concave table of his piece and would not seal
> against a flat table. We'll try to repeat the trial with a new reed
> in a few days. He also was curious if some of his other "bad" pieces
> were judged that way by him from the same phenomenum. Ya think? I
> suppose I could have held a straight edge aginst his reed to check
> it, but I did not do that.
>
> So, I'm starting to re-think whether to put concave tables on my
> pieces or not. I probably will not unless a client reports a similar
> problem when trying to use the same reed on several pieces. Then I
> will offer concaving his table for him, or tell him to be aware of
> this and not to use the same reeds on both pieces.
>
> With flat tables, you need to be carefull not to make a high spot in
> the middle of them. This is very easy to do if you change the way
> you hold the piece against the sandpaper while working on the table.
> The concave table has the advantage of of avoiding even a slight high
> spot. But you need to create the concavity.
>
> Go check your pieces and reeds and let me know what you find out.
>
>
>
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