Mouthpiece Work / Concave Table Pro/Con
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Concave Table Pro/Con
You can check if a table is flat or not by holding a straight edge across it and see if light gets under it. Check it along the width and length of the table. Some pieces are concave but provide a seal along the sides and end of the reed. The butt end of the table will look real high is there is concavity at the base of the window. The idea is that a concave table allows a cane reed to swell into the table. This would be an advantage over a flat table if the swelling would otherwise press against the table and lift up the reed in a way that causes an air leak. I suppose this could happen, but I have not observed this. But I virtually do not play on cane anymore. I think cane reeds held against a flat table just swell away from the table towards the ligature. This makes the ligature tighter and indents the reed some at the contact points. I did observe a concave table issue last night on a gig. I had the guy next to me try out a piece I had just finish for another client to see if he liked it. He slapped his reed on it and had a lot problems. Air was leaking under the reed. The mouthpiece failed the vacuum seal test. I do not use the seal test, but my pieces usually pass it. It took me a while but I determined that his broken-in cane reed had deformed to the large concave table of his piece and would not seal against a flat table. We'll try to repeat the trial with a new reed in a few days. He also was curious if some of his other "bad" pieces were judged that way by him from the same phenomenum. Ya think? I suppose I could have held a straight edge aginst his reed to check it, but I did not do that. So, I'm starting to re-think whether to put concave tables on my pieces or not. I probably will not unless a client reports a similar problem when trying to use the same reed on several pieces. Then I will offer concaving his table for him, or tell him to be aware of this and not to use the same reeds on both pieces. With flat tables, you need to be carefull not to make a high spot in the middle of them. This is very easy to do if you change the way you hold the piece against the sandpaper while working on the table. The concave table has the advantage of of avoiding even a slight high spot. But you need to create the concavity. Go check your pieces and reeds and let me know what you find out.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Concave Table Pro/Con
Hi Keith and all,
I went and had a look at all my mpcs re: table flatness. Another way to judge this that I like is to lightly moisten the table and hold it flat up underneath a (flat) piece of glass. It's then easy to see where the talbe makes contact and where it doesn't, but bear in mind that the thickness of the moisture layer can fill in slight irregularities.
One perfect way to judge concavity is to give the table a couple of swipes across some 2000 grit sandpaper pressed against a hard, flat surface and see where the shine comes up. By that light almost all my metal pieces had a slight concavity. But judging by the basic unevenness of the tables in question (Beechler alto, Berg Larsen tenor, Brilhart bari) my guess is that this is a bit of "insurance" for the mass makers to ensure that their sloppy finishing doesn't include a high spot in the center, though I don't really know for sure.
On the other hand the hard rubber pieces I have all had reasonably flat tables without any convexity (with the exception of an ancinet Berg Larsen sop, which has a slight concavity). These range from some cheapies like a Rico and a Lakey to my venerable and beloved MC Gregory. Probably much easier to machine the softer material reasonably well
The argument to hollow out a table so that the reed can swell into it doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that if the fibers are going to swell they will swell equally, not just in the center in such a way as to lift the edges up and create problems. I've never had a problem with any of the pieces whose tables I have flattened.
As I say I think that creating a concavity in the table is just a brute-foce approach to making sure there is no high spot near the center, quicker and easier than finishing the table well.
My 2 cents,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
You can check if a table is flat or not by holding a straight edge
across it and see if light gets under it. Check it along the width
and length of the table. Some pieces are concave but provide a seal
along the sides and end of the reed. The butt end of the table will
look real high is there is concavity at the base of the window.
The idea is that a concave table allows a cane reed to swell into the
table. This would be an advantage over a flat table if the swelling
would otherwise press against the table and lift up the reed in a way
that causes an air leak. I suppose this could happen, but I have not
observed this. But I virtually do not play on cane anymore. I think
cane reeds held against a flat table just swell away from the table
towards the ligature. This makes the ligature tighter and indents
the reed some at the contact points.
I did observe a concave table issue last night on a gig. I had the
guy next to me try out a piece I had just finish for another client
to see if he liked it. He slapped his reed on it and had a lot
problems. Air was leaking under the reed. The mouthpiece failed the
vacuum seal test. I do not use the seal test, but my pieces usually
pass it.
It took me a while but I determined that his broken-in cane reed had
deformed to the large concave table of his piece and would not seal
against a flat table. We'll try to repeat the trial with a new reed
in a few days. He also was curious if some of his other "bad" pieces
were judged that way by him from the same phenomenum. Ya think? I
suppose I could have held a straight edge aginst his reed to check
it, but I did not do that.
So, I'm starting to re-think whether to put concave tables on my
pieces or not. I probably will not unless a client reports a similar
problem when trying to use the same reed on several pieces. Then I
will offer concaving his table for him, or tell him to be aware of
this and not to use the same reeds on both pieces.
With flat tables, you need to be carefull not to make a high spot in
the middle of them. This is very easy to do if you change the way
you hold the piece against the sandpaper while working on the table.
The concave table has the advantage of of avoiding even a slight high
spot. But you need to create the concavity.
Go check your pieces and reeds and let me know what you find out.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: reidalf (Alf Reid [AST VT])
SUBJECT: Re: Concave Table Pro/Con
Hi Guys
Conncave or not ?
I found that most reeds tend to lift at the sides , where the rails meet the table as soon as they absorb moisture.
I does not make sense as I too would expect the reed to exert pressure against the ligature and deform
at the end of the table. This is experienced on many reeds , when one starts to play the reed feels great ,
5 minutes later it feels "dead" with lots of resistance , the low notes needs brute force to attack.
If you look at the setup you can see light shining in between MPC and reed , right up to the ligature.
For many people this is the root cause of the high pitched whistle (squeek) , which bothers them.
Since the correct strenght of reed do not make a good seal it feels (plays) like a reed 1 or 2 numbers higher,
causing them to use lighter reeds . Ever thought why metal MPC are more prone to squeeking ? My theory
is that rubber MPC tables flexes a little whith ligature/ reed pressure , causing a better seal. Rubber
MPC normally have wide rails where the rails meet the table , this makes them less sensitive to reeds
lifting their sides.
I use all the mentioned methods to try and get a flat table .... however I came to the conclusion it is almost impossible
to get a perfectly flat table right up to all sides , using sandpaper. Some people might think a table is flat but the
next guy might disagree totally. How straight is your straight edge ? how flat is my piece of glass ?
This is the reason why I first create a slightly concave table, then sand down and stop before all the
concavity is gone, ESPECIALLY ON METAL MOUTHPIECES.
If I look at photos of the Guardala laser trimmed MPC , I can believe the tables might be flat, the edges looks
razor sharp.
Keep up the flat tables, I will practise more.
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: 08 March 2003 08:20
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
Hi Keith and all,
I went and had a look at all my mpcs re: table flatness. Another way to judge this that I like is to lightly moisten the table and hold it flat up underneath a (flat) piece of glass. It's then easy to see where the talbe makes contact and where it doesn't, but bear in mind that the thickness of the moisture layer can fill in slight irregularities.
One perfect way to judge concavity is to give the table a couple of swipes across some 2000 grit sandpaper pressed against a hard, flat surface and see where the shine comes up. By that light almost all my metal pieces had a slight concavity. But judging by the basic unevenness of the tables in question (Beechler alto, Berg Larsen tenor, Brilhart bari) my guess is that this is a bit of "insurance" for the mass makers to ensure that their sloppy finishing doesn't include a high spot in the center, though I don't really know for sure.
On the other hand the hard rubber pieces I have all had reasonably flat tables without any convexity (with the exception of an ancinet Berg Larsen sop, which has a slight concavity). These range from some cheapies like a Rico and a Lakey to my venerable and beloved MC Gregory. Probably much easier to machine the softer material reasonably well
The argument to hollow out a table so that the reed can swell into it doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that if the fibers are going to swell they will swell equally, not just in the center in such a way as to lift the edges up and create problems. I've never had a problem with any of the pieces whose tables I have flattened.
As I say I think that creating a concavity in the table is just a brute-foce approach to making sure there is no high spot near the center, quicker and easier than finishing the table well.
My 2 cents,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith <mailto:kwbradbury@...> Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
You can check if a table is flat or not by holding a straight edge
across it and see if light gets under it. Check it along the width
and length of the table. Some pieces are concave but provide a seal
along the sides and end of the reed. The butt end of the table will
look real high is there is concavity at the base of the window.
The idea is that a concave table allows a cane reed to swell into the
table. This would be an advantage over a flat table if the swelling
would otherwise press against the table and lift up the reed in a way
that causes an air leak. I suppose this could happen, but I have not
observed this. But I virtually do not play on cane anymore. I think
cane reeds held against a flat table just swell away from the table
towards the ligature. This makes the ligature tighter and indents
the reed some at the contact points.
I did observe a concave table issue last night on a gig. I had the
guy next to me try out a piece I had just finish for another client
to see if he liked it. He slapped his reed on it and had a lot
problems. Air was leaking under the reed. The mouthpiece failed the
vacuum seal test. I do not use the seal test, but my pieces usually
pass it.
It took me a while but I determined that his broken-in cane reed had
deformed to the large concave table of his piece and would not seal
against a flat table. We'll try to repeat the trial with a new reed
in a few days. He also was curious if some of his other "bad" pieces
were judged that way by him from the same phenomenum. Ya think? I
suppose I could have held a straight edge aginst his reed to check
it, but I did not do that.
So, I'm starting to re-think whether to put concave tables on my
pieces or not. I probably will not unless a client reports a similar
problem when trying to use the same reed on several pieces. Then I
will offer concaving his table for him, or tell him to be aware of
this and not to use the same reeds on both pieces.
With flat tables, you need to be carefull not to make a high spot in
the middle of them. This is very easy to do if you change the way
you hold the piece against the sandpaper while working on the table.
The concave table has the advantage of of avoiding even a slight high
spot. But you need to create the concavity.
Go check your pieces and reeds and let me know what you find out.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M$7865.3003379.4374531.2848452/D=egroupweb/S05032198:HM/A82387/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vaG0xLmRhd47104349%3eM$7865.3003379.4374531.2848452/D=egroupweb/S05032198:HM/A82387/R=147104349%3eM$7865.3003379.4374531.2848452/D=egroupweb/S05032198:HM/A82387/R=2>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M$7865.3003379.4374531.2848452/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A82387/rand32823416>
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
______________________________________________
"This information is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and
may contain private, confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material and may be subject
to confidentiality agreements.
Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or any other use of or taking of any action in
reliance upon this information, by persons or entities other than the intended recipient,
is prohibited.
If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all
storage media.
The company is neither liable for proper, complete transmission of the information contained
in this communication, any delay in its receipt or that the mail is virus-free"
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Concave Table Pro/Con
Just one quick note--I had two metal mpcs which were very prone to squeaks and chirps. The Beechler was so bad I had given up on ever playing it, thought I liked the brightness for some gigs. I finally figured I had nothing to lose and started to try refacing it. Guess what I found--the rails were totally uneven, not to mention the fact that the table was all over the place. First I flattened the table. Yes pretty nearly flat--you could look at the reflection and it was a flat mirror (except for a tiny bit of rounding at the butt). Still squeaked like mad. Those rails. I spend a nasty amount of time grinding the sucker down so that they were equal. The squeaks disappeared. It is now a very well-behaved piece. I could loosen my embouchure, bite up much higher and pump air in without the awful feeling that I was on the edge--ready to squeal any second.
Emboldened by that I got to work on a Berg Larsen stainless metal piece. Although this one was not as bad as the Beechler I wasn't totally comfortaable with it--I felt that if I really let go it might chirp on me. Same story--I managed to get it really stable by carefully controlling the side and tip rails.
My theory is that it's just too damn much trouble for most mass makers to adequately finish metal pieces. Hard rubber ones are a lot easier to work with. Judy Beechler wrote me and just about said as much, going on about how they had new machines to do finishing which did a much better job than before.
It makes sense: squeaks are caused by the reed vibrating back and forth across the median axis. Uneven rails are going to get that kind of motion started. If the side and tip rails are even the reed will open and close as a unit, with less tendency to start twisting.
Anyway that's my experience.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Alf Reid [AST VT]
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
Hi Guys
Conncave or not ?
I found that most reeds tend to lift at the sides , where the rails meet the table as soon as they absorb moisture.
I does not make sense as I too would expect the reed to exert pressure against the ligature and deform
at the end of the table. This is experienced on many reeds , when one starts to play the reed feels great ,
5 minutes later it feels "dead" with lots of resistance , the low notes needs brute force to attack.
If you look at the setup you can see light shining in between MPC and reed , right up to the ligature.
For many people this is the root cause of the high pitched whistle (squeek) , which bothers them.
Since the correct strenght of reed do not make a good seal it feels (plays) like a reed 1 or 2 numbers higher,
causing them to use lighter reeds . Ever thought why metal MPC are more prone to squeeking ? My theory
is that rubber MPC tables flexes a little whith ligature/ reed pressure , causing a better seal. Rubber
MPC normally have wide rails where the rails meet the table , this makes them less sensitive to reeds
lifting their sides.
I use all the mentioned methods to try and get a flat table .... however I came to the conclusion it is almost impossible
to get a perfectly flat table right up to all sides , using sandpaper. Some people might think a table is flat but the
next guy might disagree totally. How straight is your straight edge ? how flat is my piece of glass ?
This is the reason why I first create a slightly concave table, then sand down and stop before all the
concavity is gone, ESPECIALLY ON METAL MOUTHPIECES.
If I look at photos of the Guardala laser trimmed MPC , I can believe the tables might be flat, the edges looks
razor sharp.
Keep up the flat tables, I will practise more.
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: 08 March 2003 08:20
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
Hi Keith and all,
I went and had a look at all my mpcs re: table flatness. Another way to judge this that I like is to lightly moisten the table and hold it flat up underneath a (flat) piece of glass. It's then easy to see where the talbe makes contact and where it doesn't, but bear in mind that the thickness of the moisture layer can fill in slight irregularities.
One perfect way to judge concavity is to give the table a couple of swipes across some 2000 grit sandpaper pressed against a hard, flat surface and see where the shine comes up. By that light almost all my metal pieces had a slight concavity. But judging by the basic unevenness of the tables in question (Beechler alto, Berg Larsen tenor, Brilhart bari) my guess is that this is a bit of "insurance" for the mass makers to ensure that their sloppy finishing doesn't include a high spot in the center, though I don't really know for sure.
On the other hand the hard rubber pieces I have all had reasonably flat tables without any convexity (with the exception of an ancinet Berg Larsen sop, which has a slight concavity). These range from some cheapies like a Rico and a Lakey to my venerable and beloved MC Gregory. Probably much easier to machine the softer material reasonably well
The argument to hollow out a table so that the reed can swell into it doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that if the fibers are going to swell they will swell equally, not just in the center in such a way as to lift the edges up and create problems. I've never had a problem with any of the pieces whose tables I have flattened.
As I say I think that creating a concavity in the table is just a brute-foce approach to making sure there is no high spot near the center, quicker and easier than finishing the table well.
My 2 cents,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Concave Table Pro/Con
You can check if a table is flat or not by holding a straight edge
across it and see if light gets under it. Check it along the width
and length of the table. Some pieces are concave but provide a seal
along the sides and end of the reed. The butt end of the table will
look real high is there is concavity at the base of the window.
The idea is that a concave table allows a cane reed to swell into the
table. This would be an advantage over a flat table if the swelling
would otherwise press against the table and lift up the reed in a way
that causes an air leak. I suppose this could happen, but I have not
observed this. But I virtually do not play on cane anymore. I think
cane reeds held against a flat table just swell away from the table
towards the ligature. This makes the ligature tighter and indents
the reed some at the contact points.
I did observe a concave table issue last night on a gig. I had the
guy next to me try out a piece I had just finish for another client
to see if he liked it. He slapped his reed on it and had a lot
problems. Air was leaking under the reed. The mouthpiece failed the
vacuum seal test. I do not use the seal test, but my pieces usually
pass it.
It took me a while but I determined that his broken-in cane reed had
deformed to the large concave table of his piece and would not seal
against a flat table. We'll try to repeat the trial with a new reed
in a few days. He also was curious if some of his other "bad" pieces
were judged that way by him from the same phenomenum. Ya think? I
suppose I could have held a straight edge aginst his reed to check
it, but I did not do that.
So, I'm starting to re-think whether to put concave tables on my
pieces or not. I probably will not unless a client reports a similar
problem when trying to use the same reed on several pieces. Then I
will offer concaving his table for him, or tell him to be aware of
this and not to use the same reeds on both pieces.
With flat tables, you need to be carefull not to make a high spot in
the middle of them. This is very easy to do if you change the way
you hold the piece against the sandpaper while working on the table.
The concave table has the advantage of of avoiding even a slight high
spot. But you need to create the concavity.
Go check your pieces and reeds and let me know what you find out.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
______________________________________________
"This information is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and
may contain private, confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material and may be subject
to confidentiality agreements.
Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or any other use of or taking of any action in
reliance upon this information, by persons or entities other than the intended recipient,
is prohibited.
If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all
storage media.
The company is neither liable for proper, complete transmission of the information contained
in this communication, any delay in its receipt or that the mail is virus-free"
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@...m
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.