Mouthpiece Work / Alignment of reed tip to bore
FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl <mikeruhl@...>)
SUBJECT: Alignment of reed tip to bore
I clipped the following from the description of the Hite 129 baritone sax mouthpiece, out on the J&D Hite website (http://www.jdhite.com/mouthpieces/saxmpc.htm): "...The table is angled in such a way that the tip of the reed is centered on the bore of the mouthpiece. This improved design gives the bari a rich lean sound rather than the old style spread, heavy tone. Both high and low registers are enhanced, and tonal flexibility is facilitated." Does the alignment of the reed tip in relationship to the bore really have a noticeable effect? Has anyone experimented with this?
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Yes. Wyman experimented with alto mouthpieces and found some benefits to the reed tip being nearer to the centerline of the bore. Some of my favorite mouthpieces have this feature to (Quantum, for one). I have a Link on the MP Work site to where you can order his paper. It is primarily an emperical study of different mouthpiece features. He did a really nice job with it and it is easy to read. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Sounds like hype to me. There is only a very slight effect from things like the bow curve in a sax, so how could this make any difference? Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ruhl <mikeruhl@...> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:20 AM Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore I clipped the following from the description of the Hite 129 baritone sax mouthpiece, out on the J&D Hite website (http://www.jdhite.com/mouthpieces/saxmpc.htm): "...The table is angled in such a way that the tip of the reed is centered on the bore of the mouthpiece. This improved design gives the bari a rich lean sound rather than the old style spread, heavy tone. Both high and low registers are enhanced, and tonal flexibility is facilitated." Does the alignment of the reed tip in relationship to the bore really have a noticeable effect? Has anyone experimented with this? Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Really? I wonder what causes that.... Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Bradbury To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore Yes. Wyman experimented with alto mouthpieces and found some benefits to the reed tip being nearer to the centerline of the bore. Some of my favorite mouthpieces have this feature to (Quantum, for one). I have a Link on the MP Work site to where you can order his paper. It is primarily an emperical study of different mouthpiece features. He did a really nice job with it and it is easy to read. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
I'll have to re-read his paper to see if he speculated why it was significant. I think it more closely approximates the missing part of the sax cone. I'm not sure if the paper said that or I thought of it. But like you said, the sound goes through several contortions in a sax. Hard to believe this would matter. But the data says it does (a little). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Hi Keith, I wonder what sort of controls he used. Knowing how significant bore dimensions are I think it would be hard to reproduce them exactly with two different table angles. One would have to test a whole slew of mpcs and do some statistical analysis in that case. I read that when the air column does a big curve like in the bow it changes the speed of the waves in the torus--reelatively slows them down I think I remember (the math is horrendous). To compensate the diameter needs to be contracted slighty. It would be interesting to know how the air column vibrations propagate at the tip--as we are going from a flat plane to a cylinder as the pulsations develop across the baffle and into the chamber.Perhaps there is something in there that is significant vis-a-vis having the "flat plane" of the tip in line with the cylinder of the throat. Still my guess is that whatever effect is observed would have more to do with volume than geometry. Gasses don't know anything about angles, they just fill whatever volume is availabe with an even distribution of molecules. But I don't really know enough about fluid dynamics... Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Bradbury To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore I'll have to re-read his paper to see if he speculated why it was significant. I think it more closely approximates the missing part of the sax cone. I'm not sure if the paper said that or I thought of it. But like you said, the sound goes through several contortions in a sax. Hard to believe this would matter. But the data says it does (a little). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: reidalf (Alf Reid [AST VT])
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
In my opinion the major effect will come from the change in playing angle. The playing angle for sure has a effect
on sound. This geometry will suit me perfectly as I like to play with the sax ahead of me close to the centre of
my body. On regular mouthpieces it darkens the sound giving a heavy tone, as one cant get under the reed enough
to form the perfect embrouchure.
The opposite geometry works well on straight soprano . (tip far away from centre of bore)
Much of the sound difference might thus be attributed to how COMFORTABLE the angle is.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ruhl <mikeruhl@...> [mailto:mikeruhl@...]
Sent: 06 February 2003 22:20
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore
I clipped the following from the description of the Hite 129 baritone
sax mouthpiece, out on the J&D Hite website
( http://www.jdhite.com/mouthpieces/saxmpc.htm):
"...The table is angled in such a way that the tip of the reed is
centered on the bore of the mouthpiece. This improved design gives
the bari a rich lean sound rather than the old style spread, heavy
tone. Both high and low registers are enhanced, and tonal flexibility
is facilitated."
Does the alignment of the reed tip in relationship to the bore really
have a noticeable effect? Has anyone experimented with this?
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
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FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Received the following yesterday, in an email from Dr. Wyman, in response to my asking how to obtain a copy of his Ph.D. dissertation: "Michael... you can obtain a copy over the internet... go to www.umi.com click on "Dissertation Services" click on "Dissertation Express" It is item number 7224955 Best wishes, Laurence Wyman" >From: "Toby" <kymarto@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:20:15 +0900 > >Hi Keith, > >I wonder what sort of controls he used. Knowing how significant bore >dimensions are I think it would be hard to reproduce them exactly with two >different table angles. One would have to test a whole slew of mpcs and do >some statistical analysis in that case. > >I read that when the air column does a big curve like in the bow it changes >the speed of the waves in the torus--reelatively slows them down I think I >remember (the math is horrendous). To compensate the diameter needs to be >contracted slighty. It would be interesting to know how the air column >vibrations propagate at the tip--as we are going from a flat plane to a >cylinder as the pulsations develop across the baffle and into the >chamber.Perhaps there is something in there that is significant vis-a-vis >having the "flat plane" of the tip in line with the cylinder of the throat. >Still my guess is that whatever effect is observed would have more to do >with volume than geometry. Gasses don't know anything about angles, they >just fill whatever volume is availabe with an even distribution of >molecules. But I don't really know enough about fluid dynamics... > >Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Bradbury > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore > > > I'll have to re-read his paper to see if he speculated why it was > significant. I think it more closely approximates the missing part of >the > sax cone. I'm not sure if the paper said that or I thought of it. > > But like you said, the sound goes through several contortions in a sax. > Hard to believe this would matter. But the data says it does (a >little). > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to >MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see >the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
I guess you missed that I had all that info in the Links section: >>>> Dr. Laurence Wyman Sax Prof and refacer based in Fredonia, NY. Order his Alto MP Paper at http://www.umi.com #7224955. http://www.fredonia.edu/som/wyman/Page2.htm <<<< Wyman studied 12 mouthpieces emperically averaging the results from several players. He recorded subjective comments of the players and also frequency spectrums. He consulted with S. Rascher for suggestions on the scope of the study. The paper (thesis) is almost 200 pages. He also explored several "one variable" tests by taking a single mouthpiece and modifying it. He did this to study the bore-to-table angle. Larger angles bring the tip closer to the bore centerline. He took a single mouthpiece and parted it at the shank so it could be tilted at two different angles. He sealed the joint with silicone rubber. "The increase of the angle made the tone quality more uniform in spectrum shape throughout the range and generally made for more richness of the tone by decreasing the energy of partials 2 and 4 and increasing the energy of partial 3". Earlier in the papre he explains more what he considerers desireable in a sound and how it relates to the frequency spectrums. He further confirms his results by sorting his 12 test mouthpieces from smallest to largest bore-to- table angle. The small ones had a "certain degree of stuffiness experianced by the performer". The largest one (A Brilhart Level Air) had an "extremely even tone quality".
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Thanks Mike, I've gotta admit I'm not real anxious to shell out $37 to read this, interesting though I'm sure it is. If anyone gets a copy please let us know a bit about his methods and results. Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ruhl To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore Received the following yesterday, in an email from Dr. Wyman, in response to my asking how to obtain a copy of his Ph.D. dissertation: "Michael... you can obtain a copy over the internet... go to www.umi.com click on "Dissertation Services" click on "Dissertation Express" It is item number 7224955 Best wishes, Laurence Wyman" >From: "Toby" <kymarto@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:20:15 +0900 > >Hi Keith, > >I wonder what sort of controls he used. Knowing how significant bore >dimensions are I think it would be hard to reproduce them exactly with two >different table angles. One would have to test a whole slew of mpcs and do >some statistical analysis in that case. > >I read that when the air column does a big curve like in the bow it changes >the speed of the waves in the torus--reelatively slows them down I think I >remember (the math is horrendous). To compensate the diameter needs to be >contracted slighty. It would be interesting to know how the air column >vibrations propagate at the tip--as we are going from a flat plane to a >cylinder as the pulsations develop across the baffle and into the >chamber.Perhaps there is something in there that is significant vis-a-vis >having the "flat plane" of the tip in line with the cylinder of the throat. >Still my guess is that whatever effect is observed would have more to do >with volume than geometry. Gasses don't know anything about angles, they >just fill whatever volume is availabe with an even distribution of >molecules. But I don't really know enough about fluid dynamics... > >Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Bradbury > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Alignment of reed tip to bore > > > I'll have to re-read his paper to see if he speculated why it was > significant. I think it more closely approximates the missing part of >the > sax cone. I'm not sure if the paper said that or I thought of it. > > But like you said, the sound goes through several contortions in a sax. > Hard to believe this would matter. But the data says it does (a >little). > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to >MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see >the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Thanks Keith, That's very interesting. As a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic I can't help but think however that twelve mpcs is not a very large sample. I also imagine that changing the angle of the split mpc couldn't help but change the chamber dimensions. Still, who am I to question a 200 page thesis of a Professor Emeritus of Saxophone? These things must have been brought up in his peer review. I'm going to have a look at my mpc collection tomorrow and do my own little test.... Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> To: MouthpieceWork@...m Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:53 AM Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore I guess you missed that I had all that info in the Links section: >>>> Dr. Laurence Wyman Sax Prof and refacer based in Fredonia, NY. Order his Alto MP Paper at http://www.umi.com #7224955. http://www.fredonia.edu/som/wyman/Page2.htm <<<< Wyman studied 12 mouthpieces emperically averaging the results from several players. He recorded subjective comments of the players and also frequency spectrums. He consulted with S. Rascher for suggestions on the scope of the study. The paper (thesis) is almost 200 pages. He also explored several "one variable" tests by taking a single mouthpiece and modifying it. He did this to study the bore-to-table angle. Larger angles bring the tip closer to the bore centerline. He took a single mouthpiece and parted it at the shank so it could be tilted at two different angles. He sealed the joint with silicone rubber. "The increase of the angle made the tone quality more uniform in spectrum shape throughout the range and generally made for more richness of the tone by decreasing the energy of partials 2 and 4 and increasing the energy of partial 3". Earlier in the papre he explains more what he considerers desireable in a sound and how it relates to the frequency spectrums. He further confirms his results by sorting his 12 test mouthpieces from smallest to largest bore-to- table angle. The small ones had a "certain degree of stuffiness experianced by the performer". The largest one (A Brilhart Level Air) had an "extremely even tone quality". Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Toby, it sounds to me like you would really like to read this. I'm sure you have more money sunk into some mouthpieces you are not using. Sell one and get the paper. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
Yeah, probably right Keith. Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Bradbury To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore Toby, it sounds to me like you would really like to read this. I'm sure you have more money sunk into some mouthpieces you are not using. Sell one and get the paper. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: dcb_76 (dcb_76)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
I found an old post about table-to-bore angle while digging about. I was a clarinet player first and have always felt most comfortable playing alto, soprano, and bari saxes, and least comfortable on tenor. I noticed that these MP angles were always more "clarinet-like" than my tenor, which gives me no end of trouble with respect to articulation. I have experimented with the angle of the tenor MP in my mouth and found tht the more "clarinet-like" the angle the easier to get the low notes to speak, and the more clarinet like the tone (dark and ringing as opposed to richer and somewhat diffuse). But physically It's very uncomfortable to play like that (high angle) for long. Can anyone provide a few pointers on which mouthpieces currently available provide a high table-to-bore angle, making this easier? --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>" <kwbradbury@...> wrote: > > I guess you missed that I had all that info in the Links section: > >>>> > Dr. Laurence Wyman > Sax Prof and refacer based in Fredonia, NY. Order his Alto MP Paper > at http://www.umi.com #7224955. > http://www.fredonia.edu/som/wyman/Page2.htm > <<<< > > Wyman studied 12 mouthpieces emperically averaging the results from > several players. He recorded subjective comments of the players and > also frequency spectrums. He consulted with S. Rascher for > suggestions on the scope of the study. The paper (thesis) is almost > 200 pages. > > He also explored several "one variable" tests by taking a single > mouthpiece and modifying it. He did this to study the bore-to-table > angle. Larger angles bring the tip closer to the bore centerline. > He took a single mouthpiece and parted it at the shank so it could be > tilted at two different angles. He sealed the joint with silicone > rubber. "The increase of the angle made the tone quality more > uniform in spectrum shape throughout the range and generally made for > more richness of the tone by decreasing the energy of partials 2 and > 4 and increasing the energy of partial 3". Earlier in the papre he > explains more what he considerers desireable in a sound and how it > relates to the frequency spectrums. He further confirms his results > by sorting his 12 test mouthpieces from smallest to largest bore-to- > table angle. The small ones had a "certain degree of stuffiness > experianced by the performer". The largest one (A Brilhart Level > Air) had an "extremely even tone quality". >
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Alignment of reed tip to bore
It sounds like you are more concerned with the angle of the mouthpiece to your embouchure. There used to be a tenor sax mouthpiece made that had a angled shank bore attached the mouthpiece body. It looked like a kink from the side. The ads ran in Sax Journal a lot. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com