Mouthpiece Work / Reed motion.
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)
SUBJECT: Reed motion.
There is some description, I think, in the Art Of Saxophone Playing,
Larry Teal, and some in The Saxophone Is My Voice, Ernest Ferron.
This has been photographed. To explain further, the reed stays closed
against the facing appx 180^ of the cycle, which is when the compression
wave is moving down the tube toward the other end. This leaves a low
pressure behind, in the mouthpiece and neck, while the pressure is still
high (or constant) in the mouth. So, the reed slams shut on the facing.
Then the high pressure portion of the wave hits the bell, or open tone
hole, bounces back, and eventually comes back to the mouthpiece. The
pressure is now equal, or nearly so, to the pressure inside the mouth,
so the reed can spring open, trying to straighten out.
BUT, there are multiple waves happening, along with the fundamental, and
each of these affect the pressure, making the reed open in a jerky
fashion, not smoothly swinging open, like opening a door, but stuttering
open. It then remains fully open for a period of time, and then jerks
shut again.
Paul
Toby wrote:
> Hi Paul, That's interesting information. Do you know where I can read
> more about it? Toby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Coats
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
> The reed does not simply curve around the facing, but
> remains stationary for approximately 180 degrees of the
> cycle, and moves for approximately 180 degrees of the
> cycle. During the part of the cycle where it is in motion,
> it moves in a series of jerks (perhaps corresponding to the
> overtones?).
>
> So, the motion of the reed is still quite complex.
>
> Paul
>
> "Danny Barrett " wrote:
>
> > Toby,
> >
> > Is there anything that you know of that deals with
> > everything
> > required to produce a good acoustic design of an entire
> > sax? Why I
> > ask is that one of my "pipe dreams" is to design and build
> > a
> > saxophone myself - purely for the satisfaction of being
> > able to
> > say "I made it myself" (and possibly also for trying out
> > some ideas
> > that I've been having on how to improve the instrument -
> > ideas that
> > would change a few things from the current status quo - at
> > least for
> > that horn).
> >
> > Also, thanks for the info confirming that the only
> > movement of the
> > reed is that of curving around the facing profile. I
> > thought that
> > would be the case, but I thought I would bring up the
> > possibilty of a
> > more complex form of movement, just in case someone had
> > heard of such
> > a thing happening.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby"
> > <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> > > Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations
> > of Music"
> > and was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and
> > reed behavior.
> > Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and
> > Neville H.
> > Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of
> > Music", I
> > beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent
> > books which I
> > don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's
> > "Acoustical
> > Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some
> > seminal
> > experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials
> > on flute
> > tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on
> > line in the
> > Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I
> > provided
> > earlier.
> > >
> > > Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch
> > of very
> > interesting info.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: michael d. collins
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A
> > alto
> > >
> > >
> > > toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on
> > principles of
> > acoustics?
> > >
> > > Toby wrote:
> > >
> > > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is
> >
> > effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in
> > that
> > dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin
> > axis, or the
> > tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I
> > remember
> > Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet
> > mpcs and
> > it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement
> > of any
> > significance. There is some question about how long the
> > closed part
> > of the cycle lasts.
> > >
> > > Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc
> > might have
> > some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could
> > cause some
> > flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He
> > posits a
> > max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still
> > and all we
> > are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and
> > configuration of the interior.
> > >
> > > As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in
> > acoustic
> > science circles that almost all players and makers claim
> > that the
> > material makes a significant difference. Just look at any
> > ad--flute
> > makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone
> > for
> > silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get
> > sucked in
> > without the least critical reflection on the subject.
> > Partly this is
> > due to the very real effect of wall materials in other
> > types of
> > musical instruments such as violins and guitars and
> > pianos, where the
> > vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the
> > exciting
> > mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's
> > easy to see
> > if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an
> > acoustic guitar
> > with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of
> > difference.
> > >
> > > Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame.
> > Compression
> > waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of
> > the
> > instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so
> > that it
> > can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the
> > sound--assuming
> > they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying
> > that the
> > material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will
> > travel and
> > with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in
> > dimension and
> > smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the
> > expanding
> > gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
> > projectile
> > is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument
> > bodies. Ad
> > mouthpieces.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@y...>
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A
> > alto
> > >
> > >
> > > What about differences in the coefficient of
> > friction? As the
> > reed
> > > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement
> > than simply
> > rolling
> > > closed over the facing and rolling back off it
> > (?).
> > >
> > > Is it possible that the reed might actually go
> > closed at the
> > tip
> > > first, then close up closer to the butt of the
> > reed (of
> > course, still
> > > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the
> > tip
> > slightly, then
> > > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to
> > the butt of
> > the reed,
> > > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of
> > the reed
> > opening up
> > > again? Of course, this is just speculative
> > pondering/"what
> > if" type
> > > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
> >
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that
> > have shown
> > what the
> > > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is
> > anything to
> > my
> > > speculative pondering or not?
> > >
> > > DB
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby"
> > <kymarto@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet
> > effect the
> > material of
> > > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based
> > on all my
> > reading of
> > > the science involved) that the effect is really
> > minimal--
> > almost
> > > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the
> > same thing--
> > that as
> > > long as the internal dimensions are similar the
> > material
> > doesn't
> > > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks
> > differently.
> > > >
> > > > The problem is that to really find out you have
> > to
> > eliminate all
> > > the variables except the material. This would mean
> > making
> > identical
> > > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different
> > materials.
> > Phil has
> > > that ability and I tend to side with him.
> > Certainly the
> > acoustical
> > > scientists would claim to a man that this is the
> > case. They
> > say that
> > > very small differences in the dimensions can make
> > a big
> > difference,
> > > but that materials of the same smoothness will all
> > sound
> > alike, as
> > > long as they are rigid enough not to deform under
> > the
> > pressure of the
> > > sound waves generated by the beating reed . There
> > will be
> > some small
> > > vibrational deformation of the material caused by
> > the slap of
> > the
> > > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is
> > minimal
> > compared to
> > > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a
> > slight
> > difference
> > > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but
> > we are
> > talking about
> > > absolutely inaudible differences here.
> > > >
> > > > I'd be happy to send references if you are
> > interested in
> > reading up
> > > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind
> > instruments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Toby
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Ruhl
> > > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model
> > A alto
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is
> > made from
> > comes into
> > > play. The
> > > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory
> > mouthpieces
> > were a
> > > closely
> > > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of
> > this in a
> > series
> > > of
> > > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on
> > Gregory
> > mouthpieces.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> > > > ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> > > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A
> > alto
> > > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> > > > >
> > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place
> > for this...
> > > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> > > > >
> > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> > > > >
> > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere
> > without success
> > > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece
> > enthuasists in
> > > > >here might come across...
> > > > >
> > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I
> > have
> > > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> > > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its
> > conservative
> > > > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded
> > innersided
> > > > >walls), but I have read that it actually
> > sounds
> > > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and
> > ringing? I hear
> > that
> > > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul
> > Desmond's tone.
> > > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that
> > unique
> > > > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle
> > and
> > > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could
> > it be the
> > > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or
> > what else?
> > > > >A help from experienced people would be very
> > appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > >-Andre
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
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> --
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
> http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
> http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
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>
> http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>
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--
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