Mouthpiece Work / MC Gregory Model A alto
FROM: upgrade_complete (Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...>)
SUBJECT: MC Gregory Model A alto
Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... Is there anyone who is willing to sell an MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? I have been looking for one everywhere without success and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in here might come across... If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided walls), but I have read that it actually sounds Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. -Andre
FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into play. The blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a closely guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series of "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. Mike >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...>" ><upgrade_complete@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in >here might come across... > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > >-Andre > > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have an MC Gregory tenor piece and it is indeed as you describe. It's a 5 but still very closed--in fact I have trouble finding reeds hard enough to play it. At first glance the interior configuration appears similar to a Yani 7 that I have, but the response is totally different. The Yani has a quite "round" full bodied tone. The Gregory has the same body but with a very clean high "bite" is the only way I can describe it. The Yani sounds dull and stuffy by comparison. I have a Berg Larsen metal mpc as well (I can't give you specs as I completely reworked it) which has a nice clear tone and good projection, but nowhere near the fullness of the Gregory. The Gregory is an all-round good piece and I hope you are successful in your search.
The only clue I have as to why the low-baffled Gregory might have such a nice edge while still resembling the Yani is the fact that the chamber and throat are much more open than in the Yani. It seems paradoxical as one would expect that a larger chamber would darken the sound, but this is not the case.
You've piqued my interest. Perhaps if I have time in the next couple of days I will do a little comparison of the two mpcs and repost.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 5:00 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
I have been looking for one everywhere without success
and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
here might come across...
If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
-Andre
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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all the variables except the material. This would mean making identical mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about absolutely inaudible differences here. I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ruhl To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into play. The blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a closely guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series of "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. Mike >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...>" ><upgrade_complete@...> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in >here might come across... > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > >-Andre > > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>)
SUBJECT: Material
I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin used in Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled mouthpieces. I think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than their metal conterparts. There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff Silverlite. I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to compare them to. Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but a lot of this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may make you play differently. I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me to note consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker than non- metals.
FROM: mdc5220 (michael d. collins)
SUBJECT: Re: Material
i don't know if this helps, but i saw george young the other night in a small club; he was playing a hard rubber mouthpiece that he could make sound like michael brecker or lester young within the same phrase; really quite amazing; and the projection was incredibly clear, even when playing mezzo piano; conventional wisdom is that metal is brighter and responds faster, but i really don't know that i can agree with that; i think it is all about getting the reed to vibrate the way the player wants it; i think there are too many other variables in mpc design to make material much of a factor; but i am no doubt the most inexperienced person this list, trust me. Keith Bradbury wrote: > I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin used in > Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled mouthpieces. I > think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than their > metal conterparts. > > There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff Silverlite. > I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to compare > them to. > > Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but a lot of > this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may make you > play differently. > > I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me to note > consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker than non- > metals. > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: Material
I have experimented using a Quantum Delrin as the basis and having a Bronzite model of the same mpc made up. The internal dimensions are identical but the two mpcs play differently, the Delrin model is a little more alive and vibrant whilst the Bronzite required more air to get it to sing and resonate. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> [mailto:kwbradbury@...] Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2002 5:28 AM To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Material I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin used in Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled mouthpieces. I think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than their metal conterparts. There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff Silverlite. I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to compare them to. Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but a lot of this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may make you play differently. I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me to note consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker than non- metals. Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Material
Just FYI concerning the criticality of internal dimensions let me relate a little story of a controlled experiment run to determine the effect of body tube material on flute sound.
Four identical handmade Sankyo flutes were tested, two in silver, one in gold and one in palladium. The handmade flutes were chosen because of tighter manufacturing tolerances. Two in silver to act as a control, i.e. the researchers planned to do spectral analysis of the two silver flutes first to determine the variability of response due to manufacturing differences--to get to know the playing field and eliminate those variables.
To the researchers' surprise, the differences between the two silver flutes were so great that the experiment had to be abandoned. Now here were two flutes whose tolerances were as fine as technologically possible, and still the minute differences in manufacture created differences in response far beyond the effect of the materials, which could therefore not be accurately measured.
The only conclusion that the researches could point to was that the gold flute seemed to have a sound with slightly less of the 7th harmonic. Since this is present only in a very small proportion in the lower octave and disappears completely in the second octave it made no difference to the sound.
When we talk about "identical dimensions" it is best to realize that even the finest manufacturing tolerances permit wide variability in response.
I'm not trying to get on anyone's case, just trying to promote some critical thinking and questioning of prevailing misconceptions.
Folks with a bit of time might want to check out this link
http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/
click on 1.06 and read that interesting paper.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:59 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Material
I have experimented using a Quantum Delrin as the basis and having a
Bronzite model of the same mpc made up. The internal dimensions are
identical but the two mpcs play differently, the Delrin model is a little
more alive and vibrant whilst the Bronzite required more air to get it to
sing and resonate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
[mailto:kwbradbury@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2002 5:28 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Material
I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin used in
Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled mouthpieces. I
think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than their
metal conterparts.
There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff Silverlite.
I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to compare
them to.
Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but a lot of
this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may make you
play differently.
I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me to note
consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker than non-
metals.
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FROM: mdc5220 (michael d. collins)
SUBJECT: Re: Material
just read coltman article which confirms what i learned in college as a music major when i took acoustics of music as a way to fulfill my science requirement. i wish someone had the money to invest in producing a saxophone made out of a synthetic material. the coltman experiment reminds me of the sometimes complete lack of difference between a well made yamaha plastic recorder and the more expensive ones made from maple. Toby wrote: > Just FYI concerning the criticality of internal dimensions let me > relate a little story of a controlled experiment run to determine the > effect of body tube material on flute sound. > > Four identical handmade Sankyo flutes were tested, two in silver, one > in gold and one in palladium. The handmade flutes were chosen because > of tighter manufacturing tolerances. Two in silver to act as a > control, i.e. the researchers planned to do spectral analysis of the > two silver flutes first to determine the variability of response due > to manufacturing differences--to get to know the playing field and > eliminate those variables. > > To the researchers' surprise, the differences between the two silver > flutes were so great that the experiment had to be abandoned. Now here > were two flutes whose tolerances were as fine as technologically > possible, and still the minute differences in manufacture > created differences in response far beyond the effect of the > materials, which could therefore not be accurately measured. > > The only conclusion that the researches could point to was that the > gold flute seemed to have a sound with slightly less of the 7th > harmonic. Since this is present only in a very small proportion in the > lower octave and disappears completely in the second octave it made no > difference to the sound. > > When we talk about "identical dimensions" it is best to realize that > even the finest manufacturing tolerances permit wide variability in > response. > > I'm not trying to get on anyone's case, just trying to promote some > critical thinking and questioning of prevailing misconceptions. > > Folks with a bit of time might want to check out this link > > http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/ > > click on 1.06 and read that interesting paper. > > Toby > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bootman <mailto:rbooth@...> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:59 AM > Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Material > > I have experimented using a Quantum Delrin as the basis and having a > Bronzite model of the same mpc made up. The internal dimensions are > identical but the two mpcs play differently, the Delrin model is a > little > more alive and vibrant whilst the Bronzite required more air to > get it to > sing and resonate. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> > [mailto:kwbradbury@...] > Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2002 5:28 AM > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Material > > > I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin used in > Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled mouthpieces. I > think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than their > metal conterparts. > > There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff Silverlite. > I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to compare > them to. > > Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but a lot of > this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may make you > play differently. > > I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me to note > consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker than non- > metals. > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
FROM: danny_tb (Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The MC Gregory model "A" and the early "Master" mouthpieces had quite a thin beak roof/baffle/biteplate (at least, that's how it looks on the "Master" I've seen, and so I've been told about the model "A"). I read somewhere (article by Ralph Morgan???) that the thickness of the material has a lot to do with the tone too. Starting with thick walls, as you thin them down (no doubt, from the outside to make sure you keep the chamber the same), nothing much happens until a point where the mouthpiece becomes unplayable quite suddenly. If you continue thinning it down past this point, after a while it suddenly becomes playable again - extremely playable, and it (apparently) has a much better tone (brighter???). This was the case with hard rubber only, and metal didn't have the same effect. I think it was in an article about the effect of the material on the tone, but I can't really remember now. I hope this helps. Danny --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote: > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into play. The > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a closely > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series of > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > Mike > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > >here might come across... > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
FROM: danny_tb (Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed, causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my speculative pondering or not? DB --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. > > The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all the variables except the material. This would mean making identical mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about absolutely inaudible differences here. > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. > > > Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Ruhl > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into play. The > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a closely > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series of > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > Mike > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > >here might come across... > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts. Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior. As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference. Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed, causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my speculative pondering or not? DB --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. > > The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all the variables except the material. This would mean making identical mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about absolutely inaudible differences here. > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. > > > Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Ruhl > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into play. The > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a closely > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series of > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > Mike > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > >here might come across... > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)
SUBJECT: Re: Material
The Runyon Quantum is very thin-walled as compared to other mouthpieces,
and with the Delrin material, you can even feel the vibration of the
material. The tone difference is audible between the metal and delrin
versions. But I agree, normally, with thicker mouthpieces, the material
does not affect the tone to any real extent.
The Runyon XL (delrin) and Runyon Smoothbore Metal are the same design,
but different materials. These models are somewhat thicker than the
Quantum, and do not sound any differently, as the thicker material
apparently does not vibrate as much.
I feel that these models may be compared, as the only difference is
material, they are the exact same in all other respects.
But to compare, for example, a Selmer S-80 rubber to the Selmer metal is
not a valid comparison as the chambers are different.
Paul
Toby wrote:
> Just FYI concerning the criticality of internal dimensions let me
> relate a little story of a controlled experiment run to determine the
> effect of body tube material on flute sound. Four identical handmade
> Sankyo flutes were tested, two in silver, one in gold and one in
> palladium. The handmade flutes were chosen because of tighter
> manufacturing tolerances. Two in silver to act as a control, i.e. the
> researchers planned to do spectral analysis of the two silver flutes
> first to determine the variability of response due to manufacturing
> differences--to get to know the playing field and eliminate those
> variables. To the researchers' surprise, the differences between the
> two silver flutes were so great that the experiment had to be
> abandoned. Now here were two flutes whose tolerances were as fine as
> technologically possible, and still the minute differences in
> manufacture created differences in response far beyond the effect of
> the materials, which could therefore not be accurately measured. The
> only conclusion that the researches could point to was that the gold
> flute seemed to have a sound with slightly less of the 7th harmonic.
> Since this is present only in a very small proportion in the lower
> octave and disappears completely in the second octave it made no
> difference to the sound. When we talk about "identical dimensions" it
> is best to realize that even the finest manufacturing tolerances
> permit wide variability in response. I'm not trying to get on anyone's
> case, just trying to promote some critical thinking and questioning of
> prevailing misconceptions. Folks with a bit of time might want to
> check out this link http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/ click
> on 1.06 and read that interesting paper. Toby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bootman
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:59 AM
> Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Material
> I have experimented using a Quantum Delrin as the basis and
> having a
> Bronzite model of the same mpc made up. The internal
> dimensions are
> identical but the two mpcs play differently, the Delrin
> model is a little
> more alive and vibrant whilst the Bronzite required more air
> to get it to
> sing and resonate.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
> [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2002 5:28 AM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Material
>
>
> I pretty sure there is something to the properties of Delrin
> used in
> Ruyons Quantums and XLs. These are also thin-walled
> mouthpieces. I
> think they participate in the vibrations and are louder than
> their
> metal conterparts.
>
> There also may be something to the softness of Dukoff
> Silverlite.
> I'm not real sure since I do not have any plastic Dukoffs to
> compare
> them to.
>
> Vintage rubber may be a little warmer than hard plastic, but
> a lot of
> this perception is how it feels in your mouth, which may
> make you
> play differently.
>
> I think all of the harder materials sound too similar for me
> to note
> consistant tonal differences. But I think metals are darker
> than non-
> metals.
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
http://www.saxontheweb.net
or directly to Paul's articles at:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
and view photos.
FROM: mdc5220 (michael d. collins)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
i agree. Toby wrote: > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the > thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only > flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the > center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC > did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they > only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is > some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts. > > Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some > effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing > in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB > due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking > small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the > interior. > > As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science > circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material > makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers > claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. > It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least > critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very > real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments > such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the > material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a > great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the > sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string > on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference. > > Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves > in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are > only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate > effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are > sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a > rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what > velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, > and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that > propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be > the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...> > <mailto:danny_tb@...%3E> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling > closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). > > Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip > first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed, > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up > again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. > > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my > speculative pondering or not? > > DB > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of > the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as > long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. > > > > The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all > the variables except the material. This would mean making identical > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has > that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical > scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that > very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, > but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as > long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the > sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small > vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about > absolutely inaudible differences here. > > > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. > > > > > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Ruhl > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > > > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into > play. The > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a > closely > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series > of > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > > > Mike > > > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > > >here might come across... > > > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > > > To see and modify your groups, go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
FROM: upgrade_complete (Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
So, no one has a Gregory Model A alto to sell me?
FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The material
and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the tone, as does
the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and silver all
respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a noticeable
difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the same
things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite
model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays
differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the
thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex
perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which
causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds
on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other
movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the
closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some
effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in
the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to
this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes
compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science
circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a
significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich"
tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be
hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the
subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in
other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos,
where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the
exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to
see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with
the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in
the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only
there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To
say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and
smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a
bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in
dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the
expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies.
Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Sorry sold it a month ago. -----Original Message----- From: Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@...> [mailto:upgrade_complete@...] Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 5:44 AM To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto So, no one has a Gregory Model A alto to sell me? Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
FROM: mdc5220 (michael d. collins)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of acoustics? Toby wrote: > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the > thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only > flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the > center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC > did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they > only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is > some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts. > > Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some > effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing > in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB > due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking > small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the > interior. > > As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science > circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material > makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers > claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. > It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least > critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very > real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments > such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the > material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a > great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the > sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string > on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference. > > Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves > in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are > only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate > effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are > sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a > rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what > velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, > and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that > propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be > the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...> > <mailto:danny_tb@...%3E> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling > closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). > > Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip > first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed, > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up > again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. > > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my > speculative pondering or not? > > DB > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of > the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as > long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. > > > > The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all > the variables except the material. This would mean making identical > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has > that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical > scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that > very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, > but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as > long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the > sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small > vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about > absolutely inaudible differences here. > > > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. > > > > > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Ruhl > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > > > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into > play. The > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a > closely > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series > of > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > > > Mike > > > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > > >here might come across... > > > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > > > To see and modify your groups, go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have to respectfully disagree Bootman. At present I have two handmade silver flutes, and in the past have owned or played a number of good Boehm flutes in silver, gold, wood and early plated handmade French flutes. I found nothing that could have been attributable to the material rather than the chimney height, undercut angle, tube smoothness and diameter, head dimensions, etc. It's a myth pure and simple that the material affects the tone, and everyone has bought into it and perpetuates it. I had a Grenadilla Haynes that played much more like my silver Haynes than my silver Haynes played like my present Powell flute.
I think the link I provided earlier to the Coltman paper in the Marl collection at Stanford might make interesting reading for you. I think most of the differences that players find between flutes of different materials is what they expect to find.
Yours,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The material and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the tone, as does the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and silver all respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a noticeable difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the same things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" and was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior. Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H. Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided earlier.
Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of very interesting info.
Best,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: michael d. collins
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of acoustics?
Toby wrote:
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Arthur Benade was both a clarinetist AND physicist. He has many papers,
and several books, at the Stanford site. While he chose to model the
clarinet in most of his experiments, there is much to apply to the
saxophone.
I have given links to all of this in an earlier post.
Paul
Toby wrote:
> Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" and
> was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior.
> Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H.
> Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I
> beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I
> don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical
> Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal
> experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute
> tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the
> Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided
> earlier. Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of
> very interesting info. Best, Toby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: michael d. collins
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
> toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of
> acoustics?
>
> Toby wrote:
>
> > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is
> > effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in
> > that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin
> > axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes
> > squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive
> > studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they
> > only close the tip--no other movement of any significance.
> > There is some question about how long the closed part of
> > the cycle lasts. Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass
> > of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the
> > flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck
> > which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB
> > due to this which could be significant. Still and all we
> > are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and
> > configuration of the interior. As to Ralph Morgan's
> > statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles
> > that almost all players and makers claim that the material
> > makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute
> > makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone
> > for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get
> > sucked in without the least critical reflection on the
> > subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of
> > wall materials in other types of musical instruments such
> > as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of
> > the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting
> > mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's
> > easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string
> > on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body
> > electric. Worlds of difference. Woodwinds and brass are a
> > whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air
> > itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument
> > are only there to define a shape for the air so that it
> > can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the
> > sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is
> > like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects
> > how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If
> > two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and
> > don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses
> > that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
> > projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with
> > instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. Toby
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A
> > alto
> > What about differences in the coefficient of
> > friction? As the reed
> > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement
> > than simply rolling
> > closed over the facing and rolling back off it
> > (?).
> >
> > Is it possible that the reed might actually go
> > closed at the tip
> > first, then close up closer to the butt of the
> > reed (of course, still
> > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding
> > the tip slightly, then
> > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to
> > the butt of the reed,
> > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of
> > the reed opening up
> > again? Of course, this is just speculative
> > pondering/"what if" type
> > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure
> > don't.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that
> > have shown what the
> > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is
> > anything to my
> > speculative pondering or not?
> >
> > DB
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby"
> > <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet
> > effect the material of
> > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based
> > on all my reading of
> > the science involved) that the effect is really
> > minimal--almost
> > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the
> > same thing--that as
> > long as the internal dimensions are similar the
> > material doesn't
> > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks
> > differently.
> > >
> > > The problem is that to really find out you
> > have to eliminate all
> > the variables except the material. This would
> > mean making identical
> > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different
> > materials. Phil has
> > that ability and I tend to side with him.
> > Certainly the acoustical
> > scientists would claim to a man that this is the
> > case. They say that
> > very small differences in the dimensions can
> > make a big difference,
> > but that materials of the same smoothness will
> > all sound alike, as
> > long as they are rigid enough not to deform
> > under the pressure of the
> > sound waves generated by the beating reed .
> > There will be some small
> > vibrational deformation of the material caused
> > by the slap of the
> > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is
> > minimal compared to
> > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be
> > a slight difference
> > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but
> > we are talking about
> > absolutely inaudible differences here.
> > >
> > > I'd be happy to send references if you are
> > interested in reading up
> > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind
> > instruments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Ruhl
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory
> > Model A alto
> > >
> > >
> > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is
> > made from comes into
> > play. The
> > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory
> > mouthpieces were a
> > closely
> > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention
> > of this in a series
> > of
> > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on
> > Gregory mouthpieces.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> >
> > > ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model
> > A alto
> > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> > > >
> > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect
> > place for this...
> > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> > > >
> > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> > > >
> > > >I have been looking for one everywhere
> > without success
> > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece
> > enthuasists in
> > > >here might come across...
> > > >
> > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well,
> > I have
> > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >
> > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its
> > conservative
> > > >design(low chamber and round chamber,
> > rounded innersided
> > > >walls), but I have read that it actually
> > sounds
> > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and
> > ringing? I hear that
> > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul
> > Desmond's tone.
> > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create
> > that unique
> > > >brightness in the tone despite its low
> > baffle and
> > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber?
> > Could it be the
> > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or
> > what else?
> > > >A help from experienced people would be
> > very appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >-Andre
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail
> > protection with MSN 8.
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > >
> > >
> > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Visit the site at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to
> > Mouthpiece Work.
> > >
> > > To see and modify your groups, go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to
> > Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> > of Service.
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
http://www.saxontheweb.net
or directly to Paul's articles at:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
and view photos.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>)
SUBJECT: Benade, etc Links
There are several good literature links on our site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork/links/Literature_00102855 2580/
FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
And I have to respectfully disagree with Toby. I readily agree that the
physical/dimensional design elements are the primary controlling factors in
response and tone color, but it's ludicrous to completely dismiss the effect
of materials.
If material was of no matter, why then do we have silver trumpets, gold
flutes, and copper saxophones? Why aren't all metal wind instruments simply
made of lacquered brass, or whatever would be the easiest and cheapest metal
to form?
I dare say that decades, if not centuries, of manufacturing expertise and
the opinions of countless virtuosos carries a great deal more weight with me
than a handful of clinical studies.
But moreover, my own playing experience has taught me that there is a
difference between the tone of a saxophone with a sterling silver neck and
one with a brass neck. And my old clear plastic mouthpiece produces a
brighter sound than an ebonite mouthpiece of similar, albeit not identical,
design. I can hear it, various audiences for whom I have played have heard
and commented on it. Bootman even heard it on some crappy mp3s I recorded
with it last year.
So I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby" <kymarto@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have to respectfully disagree Bootman. At present I have two handmade
silver flutes, and in the past have owned or played a number of good Boehm
flutes in silver, gold, wood and early plated handmade French flutes. I
found nothing that could have been attributable to the material rather than
the chimney height, undercut angle, tube smoothness and diameter, head
dimensions, etc. It's a myth pure and simple that the material affects the
tone, and everyone has bought into it and perpetuates it. I had a Grenadilla
Haynes that played much more like my silver Haynes than my silver Haynes
played like my present Powell flute.
I think the link I provided earlier to the Coltman paper in the Marl
collection at Stanford might make interesting reading for you. I think most
of the differences that players find between flutes of different materials
is what they expect to find.
Yours,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The material
and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the tone, as does
the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and silver all
respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a noticeable
difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the same
things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite
model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays
differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the
thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex
perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which
causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds
on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other
movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the
closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some
effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in
the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to
this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes
compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science
circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a
significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich"
tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be
hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the
subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in
other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos,
where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the
exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to
see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with
the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in
the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only
there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To
say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and
smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a
bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in
dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the
expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies.
Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Toby,
There is a difference between wood and the various other material flutes are
made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a fan of
Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds as good
and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold flutes
and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical model in
solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of a flute
body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and silver. I
am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who has many of
the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and feel of
Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver Muramatsu
with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also have a
solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference between
these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head platinum
lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the gold tube
head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. Each head
joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just my own
flutes, I have also played many more different flutes.
There is a difference in playing of these various materials of flute. These
differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as readily in a
lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis program. I
will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz..
Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in the end it
comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with when
performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the details.
A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model which
again is different to a plastic model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 12:33 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have to respectfully disagree Bootman. At present I have two handmade
silver flutes, and in the past have owned or played a number of good Boehm
flutes in silver, gold, wood and early plated handmade French flutes. I
found nothing that could have been attributable to the material rather than
the chimney height, undercut angle, tube smoothness and diameter, head
dimensions, etc. It's a myth pure and simple that the material affects the
tone, and everyone has bought into it and perpetuates it. I had a Grenadilla
Haynes that played much more like my silver Haynes than my silver Haynes
played like my present Powell flute.
I think the link I provided earlier to the Coltman paper in the Marl
collection at Stanford might make interesting reading for you. I think most
of the differences that players find between flutes of different materials
is what they expect to find.
Yours,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The
material and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the
tone, as does the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and
silver all respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a
noticeable difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the
same things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite
model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays
differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the
thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex
perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which
causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds
on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other
movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the
closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some
effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in
the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to
this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes
compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science
circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a
significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich"
tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be
hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the
subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in
other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos,
where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the
exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to
see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with
the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves
in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only
there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To
say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and
smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a
bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in
dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the
expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies.
Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course,
still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly,
then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the
reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material
of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading
of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of
the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking
about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading
up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes
into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
>
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FROM: danny_tb (Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Toby, Is there anything that you know of that deals with everything required to produce a good acoustic design of an entire sax? Why I ask is that one of my "pipe dreams" is to design and build a saxophone myself - purely for the satisfaction of being able to say "I made it myself" (and possibly also for trying out some ideas that I've been having on how to improve the instrument - ideas that would change a few things from the current status quo - at least for that horn). Also, thanks for the info confirming that the only movement of the reed is that of curving around the facing profile. I thought that would be the case, but I thought I would bring up the possibilty of a more complex form of movement, just in case someone had heard of such a thing happening. Danny --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" and was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior. Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H. Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided earlier. > > Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of very interesting info. > > Best, > > Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: michael d. collins > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > > toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of acoustics? > > Toby wrote: > > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts. > > Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior. > > As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference. > > Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. > > Toby > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@y...> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > > What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling > closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). > > Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip > first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed, > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up > again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. > > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my > speculative pondering or not? > > DB > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of > the science involved) that the effect is really minimal-- almost > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing-- that as > long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. > > > > The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all > the variables except the material. This would mean making identical > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has > that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical > scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that > very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference, > but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as > long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the > sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small > vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about > absolutely inaudible differences here. > > > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. > > > > > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Ruhl > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > > > > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into > play. The > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a > closely > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series > of > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. > > > > Mike > > > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" > > ><upgrade_complete@y...> > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 > > > > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an > > > > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? > > > > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in > > >here might come across... > > > > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative > > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided > > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique > > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? > > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. > > > > > >-Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > > > To see and modify your groups, go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
FROM: danny_tb (Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Bootman has just jolted my memory.... During the time when I was a mad pipe-organ fanatic, I purchased the two-volume set "The art of organ building" by Audsley (forgot his Christian name). As far as organ pipes are concerned, both wooden and metal pipes show different tonal characteristics according to the material used. This isn't limited to whether it's pipe-metal (basically solder), or wood, but also depends on what proportion of the metal is tin, what proportion is lead, what proportion is another alloying compound, or on the other hand, what type of wood it is, and even how tight the grain is. However, this being said, it should be noted that the pipes are usually thin enough to become a part of the whole resonance - it's obvious that the material will have an effect in this case - the microscopic deflections change the basic shape, and the tone character. Where the material is thick enough to not resonate with the sound waves, the only sound coulouring effect is the frequency ranges that a particular material will absorb/reflect the best (which, when all said and done, still comes down to microscopic surface resonance effects). Thinking about it, a classic example is that of playing a sax against a thick, solid plate-glass window, and then playing it against a thick, solid piece of wooden furniture. The sound reflection from the wood will invariably sound more warm than that from the glass, irrespective of the smoothness of the finish of each material, etc. This is, of course, playing the same horn, with the same mouthpiece, same reed, same ligature, same embouchure, same note, etc, etc, etc, within the same room, from the same position in the room. Basically, there is an interaction between the material and the soundwaves (at least in this instance), where one material will absorb certain frequencies that another material won't (pointing back to the microscopic stuff again). However, I don't know how far this effect goes - playing against brick as opposed to concrete (of the same surface roughness) doesn't seem to sound any different to each other (at least to me). Likewise with smooth concrete, as opposed to plate glass (I haven't tried playing against plate metal yet, so I can't comment on that one). However, playing against concrete or glass sounds different (to me) to playing against wood. The one thing that I have noticed is that where the material is harder/more solid/more inflexible, the less overtones it absorbs (pointing again to the microscopic stuff). It's probably for this reason that playing against wood has the "warming" effect: most types of wood are softer than glass and concrete (etc), so it's surface is easier for the sound waves to deform microscopically. But once again, it's really coming down to the difference between the material taking part in the resonance, and the material simply rigidly containing and shaping it - a difference that (to a large extent, but certainly not 100%) depends on the thickness of the material. Anyway, that's just another 2 cents worth. --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote: > Toby, > There is a difference between wood and the various other material flutes are > made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a fan of > Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds as good > and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold flutes > and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical model in > solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of a flute > body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and silver. I > am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who has many of > the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and feel of > Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver Muramatsu > with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also have a > solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference between > these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head platinum > lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the gold tube > head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. Each head > joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just my own > flutes, I have also played many more different flutes. > > There is a difference in playing of these various materials of flute. These > differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as readily in a > lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis program. I > will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz.. > > Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in the end it > comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with when > performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the details. > > A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model which > again is different to a plastic model. > Bootman
FROM: mdc5220 (michael d. collins)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
thanks, my library is in boxes while we prepare to move; i remember really enjoying the physics class that the music department had developed with the physics department (Cal State Northridege back in the mid and late 1970s); the central theme that i came away with is that there is a lot of misunderstanding among musicians about acoustics and the physics of music. Toby wrote: > Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" and > was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior. > Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H. > Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I > beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I > don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical > Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal > experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute > tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the > Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided earlier. > > Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of very > interesting info. > > Best, > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: michael d. collins <mailto:chedoggy@...> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of acoustics? > > Toby wrote: > >> The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively >> the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It >> can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex >> around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from >> USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems >> that they only close the tip--no other movement of any >> significance. There is some question about how long the closed >> part of the cycle lasts. >> >> Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have >> some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause >> some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He >> posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. >> Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the >> dimensions and configuration of the interior. >> >> As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic >> science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the >> material makes a significant difference. Just look at any >> ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" >> tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get >> sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. >> Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in >> other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars >> and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the >> vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent >> produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of >> a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a >> solid body electric. Worlds of difference. >> >> Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression >> waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the >> instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that >> it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the >> sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like >> saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a >> bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are >> identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the >> pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then >> the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The >> same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces. >> >> Toby >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...> >> <mailto:danny_tb@...%3E> >> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM >> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto >> >> What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the >> reed >> vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply >> rolling >> closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?). >> >> Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip >> first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of >> course, still >> on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip >> slightly, then >> as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of >> the reed, >> causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed >> opening up >> again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what >> if" type >> of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't. >> >> Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown >> what the >> exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my >> speculative pondering or not? >> >> DB >> >> >> >> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> >> wrote: >> > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the >> material of >> a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my >> reading of >> the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost >> unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same >> thing--that as >> long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't >> matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently. >> > >> > The problem is that to really find out you have to >> eliminate all >> the variables except the material. This would mean making >> identical >> mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. >> Phil has >> that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the >> acoustical >> scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They >> say that >> very small differences in the dimensions can make a big >> difference, >> but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound >> alike, as >> long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the >> pressure of the >> sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be >> some small >> vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of >> the >> reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal >> compared to >> the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight >> difference >> based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are >> talking about >> absolutely inaudible differences here. >> > >> > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in >> reading up >> on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments. >> > >> > >> > Toby >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Mike Ruhl >> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM >> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto >> > >> > >> > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from >> comes into >> play. The >> > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces >> were a >> closely >> > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a >> series >> of >> > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>" >> > ><upgrade_complete@y...> >> > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto >> > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000 >> > > >> > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this... >> > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an >> > > >> > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16? >> > > >> > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success >> > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in >> > >here might come across... >> > > >> > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have >> > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly >> > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative >> > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided >> > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds >> > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that >> > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone. >> > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique >> > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and >> > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the >> > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else? >> > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated. >> > > >> > >-Andre >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> > >> > >> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to >> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Visit the site at >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to >> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. >> > >> > To see and modify your groups, go to >> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups >> > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service. >> >> >> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to >> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> >> Visit the site at >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the >> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. >> >> To see and modify your groups, go to >> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. >> >> >> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to >> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com >> >> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to >> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. >> >> To see and modify your groups, go to >> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed does not simply curve around the facing, but remains stationary
for approximately 180 degrees of the cycle, and moves for approximately
180 degrees of the cycle. During the part of the cycle where it is in
motion, it moves in a series of jerks (perhaps corresponding to the
overtones?).
So, the motion of the reed is still quite complex.
Paul
"Danny Barrett " wrote:
> Toby,
>
> Is there anything that you know of that deals with everything
> required to produce a good acoustic design of an entire sax? Why I
> ask is that one of my "pipe dreams" is to design and build a
> saxophone myself - purely for the satisfaction of being able to
> say "I made it myself" (and possibly also for trying out some ideas
> that I've been having on how to improve the instrument - ideas that
> would change a few things from the current status quo - at least for
> that horn).
>
> Also, thanks for the info confirming that the only movement of the
> reed is that of curving around the facing profile. I thought that
> would be the case, but I thought I would bring up the possibilty of a
> more complex form of movement, just in case someone had heard of such
> a thing happening.
>
> Danny
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> > Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music"
> and was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior.
> Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H.
> Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I
> beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I
> don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical
> Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal
> experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute
> tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the
> Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided
> earlier.
> >
> > Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of very
> interesting info.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Toby
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: michael d. collins
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
> >
> >
> > toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of
> acoustics?
> >
> > Toby wrote:
> >
> > The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is
> effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that
> dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the
> tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember
> Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and
> it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any
> significance. There is some question about how long the closed part
> of the cycle lasts.
> >
> > Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have
> some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some
> flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a
> max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we
> are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and
> configuration of the interior.
> >
> > As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic
> science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the
> material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute
> makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for
> silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in
> without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is
> due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of
> musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the
> vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting
> mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see
> if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar
> with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
> >
> > Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression
> waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the
> instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it
> can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming
> they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the
> material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and
> with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and
> smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding
> gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile
> is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad
> mouthpieces.
> >
> > Toby
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@y...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
> >
> >
> > What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the
> reed
> > vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply
> rolling
> > closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
> >
> > Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the
> tip
> > first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of
> course, still
> > on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip
> slightly, then
> > as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of
> the reed,
> > causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed
> opening up
> > again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what
> if" type
> > of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown
> what the
> > exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to
> my
> > speculative pondering or not?
> >
> > DB
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...>
> wrote:
> > > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the
> material of
> > a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my
> reading of
> > the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--
> almost
> > unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--
> that as
> > long as the internal dimensions are similar the material
> doesn't
> > matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
> > >
> > > The problem is that to really find out you have to
> eliminate all
> > the variables except the material. This would mean making
> identical
> > mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials.
> Phil has
> > that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the
> acoustical
> > scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They
> say that
> > very small differences in the dimensions can make a big
> difference,
> > but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound
> alike, as
> > long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the
> pressure of the
> > sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be
> some small
> > vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of
> the
> > reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal
> compared to
> > the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight
> difference
> > based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are
> talking about
> > absolutely inaudible differences here.
> > >
> > > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in
> reading up
> > on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Ruhl
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> > >
> > >
> > > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from
> comes into
> > play. The
> > > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces
> were a
> > closely
> > > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a
> series
> > of
> > > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory
> mouthpieces.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> > > ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> > > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> > > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> > > >
> > > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> > > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> > > >
> > > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> > > >
> > > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> > > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> > > >here might come across...
> > > >
> > > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> > > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> > > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> > > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> > > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> > > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear
> that
> > > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> > > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> > > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> > > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> > > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> > > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
>
> > > >
> > > >-Andre
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN
> 8.
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > >
> > >
> > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece
> Work.
> > >
> > > To see and modify your groups, go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos
> and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork
> to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
http://www.saxontheweb.net
or directly to Paul's articles at:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
and view photos.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Hey Mike, Yep, I guess we just agree to disagree. I used to think just like you do, but after reading countless papers and getting some understanding of what the physicists were talking about I began to wonder just how much I cound definitely attribute to materials, and the grudging answer I finally came up with was "none". The "clinical" studies that you refer to were the only examples of rigorous attempts to exclude other variables such as differing bore dimensions--even the"feel" of the instrument in the players hands. Coltman's famous experiment using identical flutes made of different materials is a good example: to make sure that the player could not identify the instrument by feel he made sure that the surfaces were identical to the touch, and mounted all three flutes on a rotating wheel so that the players couldn't tell by weight which was which. He then had a number of players and listeners play/listen to the flutes at random in a double blind situation and asked them to say which was which. Neither the players nor the listeners came up with anything statistically over average guessing odds--IOW with all visual and tactile clues removed neither the players nor the listeners knew which was which. Only one player sussed out one clue--he knew that one of the flutes warmed up faster than the other two. Very careful studies have been made with accelerometers to understand the nature of the vibrations that the walls undergo during playing and the conclusions are that wall vibrations alone in instruments of cylindrical cross section can contribute at most about 1/10000 the amount of sound energy that the air column produces. Not much. And in terms of your question as to why people make instruments out of precious metals I would answer that they do so for the same reasons that they make jewellery out of those same metals--they look pretty and they have status. It's worth noting that many of the early handmade Boehm flutes of famous makers such as Louis Lot, Bonneville and August Hammig to name three, were made of silver plated nickel. I had an old plated Bonneville as well as a silver Bonneville and they were both excellent flutes. Marcel Moyse, one of the flute greats of the 20th century played his entire career on a nickel flute. And Georges Barrere, the eminent French flutist who was presented a platinum flute by Haynes (and for whom Density 21.5 was written in honor of the fact) once confided to an acquaintance of mine that he hated the flute. He claimed that the flute was "dead" but that he had promised Haynes that he would play it. Another flutist who was there tried Barrere's flute and confirmed that. Why do people buy gold Rolex watches when the stainless ones tell time just as well? As a maker of shakuhachi flutes, in which the bores are built by hand with stone and lacquer paste, I can confirm that variations of as little as 1/100 of an inch can cause big changes in response in critical areas. Did you measure the two sax necks you mention to make sure that they were identical to that degree? If not I don't think you can claim unequivocally that the difference was caused by the material. Because the players are so vociferous about materials making a difference the scientists have been looking hard for the last 150 years. They have yet to come up with anything to support that claim. It may be that the scientists have not been able to find it, but it might also mean that it doesn't exist. My 2 cents :~} Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ruhl To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto And I have to respectfully disagree with Toby. I readily agree that the physical/dimensional design elements are the primary controlling factors in response and tone color, but it's ludicrous to completely dismiss the effect of materials. If material was of no matter, why then do we have silver trumpets, gold flutes, and copper saxophones? Why aren't all metal wind instruments simply made of lacquered brass, or whatever would be the easiest and cheapest metal to form? I dare say that decades, if not centuries, of manufacturing expertise and the opinions of countless virtuosos carries a great deal more weight with me than a handful of clinical studies. But moreover, my own playing experience has taught me that there is a difference between the tone of a saxophone with a sterling silver neck and one with a brass neck. And my old clear plastic mouthpiece produces a brighter sound than an ebonite mouthpiece of similar, albeit not identical, design. I can hear it, various audiences for whom I have played have heard and commented on it. Bootman even heard it on some crappy mp3s I recorded with it last year. So I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have an Almeida handmade and a Powell handmade silver flute. the tubes are identical in diameter--the heads are interchangeable. The two headjoints are very close as far as I can measure with my vernier calipers. The Almeida is a classic old Powell style head with a rectangular embouchure hole. The Powell head is a Cooper style. The difference is like night and day. There are significant differences in the way the bodies take air and respond as well, which is quite remarkable when you think that these are two cylinders with identical diameters.
With differences like those in two flutes of the same materials I don't know how anyone can claim to tell the differences caused by the materials. This was also the conclusion in the flute test I mentioned a few posts back.
You say that it takes more air to make a gold flute "resonate". What does that mean? The total expansion of a flute tube caused by pressure waves in the bore is well under a millionth of a meter. It is the air vibrating in the tube that causes the sound, not the vibrations of the tube.
I've played quite a few flutes in different materials too and I've never noticed any consistent differences that couldn't be attributed to variances in internal dimensions.
I'm not saying that the materials make no difference, only that the difference is several orders of magnitude below what most folks think.
So I guess I also have to agree to disagree on this with you too ;~)
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Toby,
There is a difference between wood and the various other material flutes are made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a fan of Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds as good and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold flutes and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical model in solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of a flute body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and silver. I am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who has many of the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and feel of Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver Muramatsu with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also have a solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference between these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head platinum lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the gold tube head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. Each head joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just my own flutes, I have also played many more different flutes.
There is a difference in playing of these various materials of flute. These differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as readily in a lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis program. I will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz..
Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in the end it comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with when performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the details.
A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model which again is different to a plastic model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 12:33 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have to respectfully disagree Bootman. At present I have two handmade silver flutes, and in the past have owned or played a number of good Boehm flutes in silver, gold, wood and early plated handmade French flutes. I found nothing that could have been attributable to the material rather than the chimney height, undercut angle, tube smoothness and diameter, head dimensions, etc. It's a myth pure and simple that the material affects the tone, and everyone has bought into it and perpetuates it. I had a Grenadilla Haynes that played much more like my silver Haynes than my silver Haynes played like my present Powell flute.
I think the link I provided earlier to the Coltman paper in the Marl collection at Stanford might make interesting reading for you. I think most of the differences that players find between flutes of different materials is what they expect to find.
Yours,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The material and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the tone, as does the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and silver all respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a noticeable difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the same things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course, still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly, then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if" type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate all
the variables except the material. This would mean making identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike, as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Some interesting points Danny, Bore smoothness apparently has a BIG effect on the sound (much more than the material). There is a boundary layer right next to the wall itself (out to about .1 mm if I remember correctly). Air molecues can be considerably slowed down and lose energy if the surface is rough. So the grain of the wood can have much more effect on the sound than the fact that the material is wood per se. The key is rigidity--as long as the rigidity is high enough the material makes no difference. There is a caveat in the material question and it concerns the thermal coefficient (I think it is called) of the material. So materials (like heavy draperies) absorb sound and convert the energy to heat. Other materials (like metals) don't (to the same degree). The range is rather wide, but in all materials used to make instruments the range is very narrow. We don't usually make instruments out of heavy draperies ;~) The only research ever to show that materials had an effect on the sound was a study done with organ pipes, but this was done with tubes that were square, and that makes a lot of difference. With tubes of elliptical or rectangular cross section the flat parts of the walls can be set to vibrating quite easily by the air column. This can't happen with round cross-sectional tubes--they can only expand and contract like a balloon being blown up. I used to "ping" a flute holding it at the tenon to feel how "alive" it was. Those kinds of vibrations are elliptical deformations of the tube and are caused by striking it at one point. The vibrating air column is pushing outward equally all around, so those kinds of vibrations do not happen while you are playing. Meaning no disrespect to anyone who believes differently, but I believe that 99% (at least) of differences perceived as due to materials has to do with the attitudes towards those materials of those concerned. The makers construct gold and platinum flutes more carefully, or the senior makers with more skill are assigned those instruments. And I know from my own case how much my preconceived notions of an instrument affect how I play it and adjust to its particular characteristics unconsciously, for better or worse. Maybe tomorrow those scientists will publish with findings that the materials do affect the response and tone and then I will have to rethink everything again, but until then I remain convinced that no one has shown that to be the case, and all claims to the contrary are unreliable because all other variables that have been shown to make a difference have not be considered and eliminated. I believed just the opposite for many years and I feel that I was "duped" and accepted the fact that gold flutes sound "richer" for instance without questioning it. I'm on my high horse here hoping to make people question their conclusions. If they come to a different opinion after really thinking it through that's fine, I'd just like to see them really explore the question in all its aspects. Don't forget that before Columbus almost everyone, learned scholars included, believed that the world was flat. And if it weren't for Copernicus we might still be thinking the universe revoles around the Earth. We would have had real trouble with those Moon shots ;~) Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto Bootman has just jolted my memory.... During the time when I was a mad pipe-organ fanatic, I purchased the two-volume set "The art of organ building" by Audsley (forgot his Christian name). As far as organ pipes are concerned, both wooden and metal pipes show different tonal characteristics according to the material used. This isn't limited to whether it's pipe-metal (basically solder), or wood, but also depends on what proportion of the metal is tin, what proportion is lead, what proportion is another alloying compound, or on the other hand, what type of wood it is, and even how tight the grain is. However, this being said, it should be noted that the pipes are usually thin enough to become a part of the whole resonance - it's obvious that the material will have an effect in this case - the microscopic deflections change the basic shape, and the tone character. Where the material is thick enough to not resonate with the sound waves, the only sound coulouring effect is the frequency ranges that a particular material will absorb/reflect the best (which, when all said and done, still comes down to microscopic surface resonance effects). Thinking about it, a classic example is that of playing a sax against a thick, solid plate-glass window, and then playing it against a thick, solid piece of wooden furniture. The sound reflection from the wood will invariably sound more warm than that from the glass, irrespective of the smoothness of the finish of each material, etc. This is, of course, playing the same horn, with the same mouthpiece, same reed, same ligature, same embouchure, same note, etc, etc, etc, within the same room, from the same position in the room. Basically, there is an interaction between the material and the soundwaves (at least in this instance), where one material will absorb certain frequencies that another material won't (pointing back to the microscopic stuff again). However, I don't know how far this effect goes - playing against brick as opposed to concrete (of the same surface roughness) doesn't seem to sound any different to each other (at least to me). Likewise with smooth concrete, as opposed to plate glass (I haven't tried playing against plate metal yet, so I can't comment on that one). However, playing against concrete or glass sounds different (to me) to playing against wood. The one thing that I have noticed is that where the material is harder/more solid/more inflexible, the less overtones it absorbs (pointing again to the microscopic stuff). It's probably for this reason that playing against wood has the "warming" effect: most types of wood are softer than glass and concrete (etc), so it's surface is easier for the sound waves to deform microscopically. But once again, it's really coming down to the difference between the material taking part in the resonance, and the material simply rigidly containing and shaping it - a difference that (to a large extent, but certainly not 100%) depends on the thickness of the material. Anyway, that's just another 2 cents worth. --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote: > Toby, > There is a difference between wood and the various other material flutes are > made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a fan of > Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds as good > and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold flutes > and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical model in > solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of a flute > body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and silver. I > am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who has many of > the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and feel of > Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver Muramatsu > with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also have a > solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference between > these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head platinum > lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the gold tube > head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. Each head > joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just my own > flutes, I have also played many more different flutes. > > There is a difference in playing of these various materials of flute. These > differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as readily in a > lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis program. I > will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz.. > > Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in the end it > comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with when > performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the details. > > A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model which > again is different to a plastic model. > Bootman Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. 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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Hi Paul,
That's interesting information. Do you know where I can read more about it?
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Coats
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed does not simply curve around the facing, but remains stationary for approximately 180 degrees of the cycle, and moves for approximately 180 degrees of the cycle. During the part of the cycle where it is in motion, it moves in a series of jerks (perhaps corresponding to the overtones?).
So, the motion of the reed is still quite complex.
Paul
"Danny Barrett " wrote:
Toby,
Is there anything that you know of that deals with everything
required to produce a good acoustic design of an entire sax? Why I
ask is that one of my "pipe dreams" is to design and build a
saxophone myself - purely for the satisfaction of being able to
say "I made it myself" (and possibly also for trying out some ideas
that I've been having on how to improve the instrument - ideas that
would change a few things from the current status quo - at least for
that horn).
Also, thanks for the info confirming that the only movement of the
reed is that of curving around the facing profile. I thought that
would be the case, but I thought I would bring up the possibilty of a
more complex form of movement, just in case someone had heard of such
a thing happening.
Danny
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> Backus wrote a book called "The Acoustical Foundations of Music"
and was a prime investigator of clarinet acoustics and reed behavior.
Other "stars" in the field are Thomas D. Rossing and Neville H.
Fletcher who co-authored a book called "The Physics of Music", I
beileve. Arthur Benade also wrote a couple of excellent books which I
don't have. If you're a math whiz check out Nederveen's "Acoustical
Aspects of Woodwind Instruments". Finally Coltman did some seminal
experiments having to do with the effect of wall materials on flute
tone (conclusion: none). His flute paper is available on line in the
Marl collection (as well as some others) at the link I provided
earlier.
>
> Backus' book is the least technical and contains a bunch of very
interesting info.
>
> Best,
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: michael d. collins
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> toby, was it backus who wrote a text book on principles of
acoustics?
>
> Toby wrote:
>
> The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is
effectively the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that
dimension. It can only flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the
tip can flex around the center which causes squeaks. As I remember
Backus from USC did extensive studies of reeds on clarinet mpcs and
it seems that they only close the tip--no other movement of any
significance. There is some question about how long the closed part
of the cycle lasts.
>
> Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have
some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some
flexing in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a
max of 3 dB due to this which could be significant. Still and all we
are talking small potatoes compared to the dimensions and
configuration of the interior.
>
> As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic
science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the
material makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute
makers claiming "rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for
silver, etc. It appears to all be hype, and we all get sucked in
without the least critical reflection on the subject. Partly this is
due to the very real effect of wall materials in other types of
musical instruments such as violins and guitars and pianos, where the
vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the exciting
mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to see
if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar
with the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
>
> Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression
waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the
instrument are only there to define a shape for the air so that it
can vibrate effectively. To say that walls change the sound--assuming
they are sufficiently rigid and smooth--is like saying that the
material of a rifle barrel affects how far a bullet will travel and
with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in dimension and
smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the expanding
gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the projectile
is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies. Ad
mouthpieces.
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@y...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the
reed
> vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply
rolling
> closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
>
> Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the
tip
> first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of
course, still
> on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip
slightly, then
> as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of
the reed,
> causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed
opening up
> again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what
if" type
> of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
>
> Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown
what the
> exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to
my
> speculative pondering or not?
>
> DB
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...>
wrote:
> > This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the
material of
> a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my
reading of
> the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--
almost
> unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same thing--
that as
> long as the internal dimensions are similar the material
doesn't
> matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
> >
> > The problem is that to really find out you have to
eliminate all
> the variables except the material. This would mean making
identical
> mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials.
Phil has
> that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the
acoustical
> scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They
say that
> very small differences in the dimensions can make a big
difference,
> but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound
alike, as
> long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the
pressure of the
> sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be
some small
> vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of
the
> reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal
compared to
> the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight
difference
> based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are
talking about
> absolutely inaudible differences here.
> >
> > I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in
reading up
> on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
> >
> >
> > Toby
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Ruhl
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >
> >
> > This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from
comes into
> play. The
> > blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces
were a
> closely
> > guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a
series
> of
> > "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory
mouthpieces.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> > ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> > >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> > >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> > >
> > >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> > >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> > >
> > >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> > >
> > >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> > >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> > >here might come across...
> > >
> > >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> > >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> > >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> > >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> > >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> > >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear
that
> > >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> > >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> > >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> > >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> > >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> > >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> > >
> > >-Andre
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN
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> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece
Work.
> >
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>
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
http://www.saxontheweb.net
or directly to Paul's articles at:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
and view photos.
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FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Toby,
Lets agree to disagree, I have tried various heads on the same body,
different combinations of materials etc. I have a wooden head join there
that does indeed sound very different to silver head joint which in turn
sounds very different to a gold head joint. There is difference in
embouchure holes as well, more difference than can be found in the materials
the instrument is made from. The differences that a player feels to be huge
differences are perhaps not as obvious to the listener. The differences that
are apparent on the playing end change the physical way you play a given
instrument.
I also suppose that soldered and non soldered tone holes make no difference
to the sound of a flute either? I have found that there is a difference in
how the tone holes are formed in how a flute plays, same with a sax. Perhaps
these differences aren't able to measured by electronics. I also don't
totally believe in the infallibility of electronics and scientific
measurements either as the sensitivity of the human ear, within the hearing
range is pretty astonishing. There is also a difference in open hole and
closed hole flutes in how they feel and respond to the player, sonically
there is very little difference though.
I also prefer the sound of silver on the neck area of a sax, wether plated
or solid, it adds more focus to the sound of a given sax. I have proved this
to myself on more than one occasion with different saxophones too. I
experimented with a Selmer Bari neck, I played it as a lacquered neck, I
then stripped the neck and then I silver plated the same neck. The bare
brass was significantly more vibrant than the lacquer and the silver plate
was better again. The differences between the bare brass and the silver
where less pronounced than between the lacquer and the bare brass. I am
talking about how the sound of the instrument is to the player behind the
instrument.
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Thursday, 19 December 2002 3:53 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have an Almeida handmade and a Powell handmade silver flute. the tubes
are identical in diameter--the heads are interchangeable. The two headjoints
are very close as far as I can measure with my vernier calipers. The Almeida
is a classic old Powell style head with a rectangular embouchure hole. The
Powell head is a Cooper style. The difference is like night and day. There
are significant differences in the way the bodies take air and respond as
well, which is quite remarkable when you think that these are two cylinders
with identical diameters.
With differences like those in two flutes of the same materials I don't
know how anyone can claim to tell the differences caused by the materials.
This was also the conclusion in the flute test I mentioned a few posts back.
You say that it takes more air to make a gold flute "resonate". What does
that mean? The total expansion of a flute tube caused by pressure waves in
the bore is well under a millionth of a meter. It is the air vibrating in
the tube that causes the sound, not the vibrations of the tube.
I've played quite a few flutes in different materials too and I've never
noticed any consistent differences that couldn't be attributed to variances
in internal dimensions.
I'm not saying that the materials make no difference, only that the
difference is several orders of magnitude below what most folks think.
So I guess I also have to agree to disagree on this with you too ;~)
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
Toby,
There is a difference between wood and the various other material flutes
are made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a fan
of Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds as good
and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold flutes
and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical model in
solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of a flute
body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and silver. I
am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who has many of
the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and feel of
Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver Muramatsu
with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also have a
solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference between
these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head platinum
lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the gold tube
head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. Each head
joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just my own
flutes, I have also played many more different flutes.
There is a difference in playing of these various materials of flute.
These differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as readily
in a lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis
program. I will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz..
Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in the end
it comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with when
performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the details.
A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model which
again is different to a plastic model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 12:33 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
I have to respectfully disagree Bootman. At present I have two
handmade silver flutes, and in the past have owned or played a number of
good Boehm flutes in silver, gold, wood and early plated handmade French
flutes. I found nothing that could have been attributable to the material
rather than the chimney height, undercut angle, tube smoothness and
diameter, head dimensions, etc. It's a myth pure and simple that the
material affects the tone, and everyone has bought into it and perpetuates
it. I had a Grenadilla Haynes that played much more like my silver Haynes
than my silver Haynes played like my present Powell flute.
I think the link I provided earlier to the Coltman paper in the Marl
collection at Stanford might make interesting reading for you. I think most
of the differences that players find between flutes of different materials
is what they expect to find.
Yours,
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Bootman
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
A gold Flute does play quite differently from a silver flute. The
material and cut of the embouchure has a more significant effect on the
tone, as does the material that the Chimney is made from. Gold, Platinum and
silver all respond differently when you play them on a Flute, there is a
noticeable difference in resistance to the player.
Material of mpcs also does make a difference, I have experienced the
same things Paul describes with the Quantum mpcs. I have even had a Bronzite
model made up as well, an exact replica of a Quantum and it plays
differently to the Delrin and the Metal model.
Bootman
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby [mailto:kymarto@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 1:13 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
The reed can't shrink and expand laterally, as it is effectively
the thickness of the cane from tip to butt in that dimension. It can only
flex perpendicular to the thin axis, or the tip can flex around the center
which causes squeaks. As I remember Backus from USC did extensive studies of
reeds on clarinet mpcs and it seems that they only close the tip--no other
movement of any significance. There is some question about how long the
closed part of the cycle lasts.
Nederveen suggests that the inertial mass of the mpc might have
some effect on a sax since the flexure of the reed could cause some flexing
in the neck which could affect the embouchure. He posits a max of 3 dB due
to this which could be significant. Still and all we are talking small
potatoes compared to the dimensions and configuration of the interior.
As to Ralph Morgan's statements: it is well known in acoustic
science circles that almost all players and makers claim that the material
makes a significant difference. Just look at any ad--flute makers claiming
"rich" tone for gold flutes, "bright" tone for silver, etc. It appears to
all be hype, and we all get sucked in without the least critical reflection
on the subject. Partly this is due to the very real effect of wall materials
in other types of musical instruments such as violins and guitars and
pianos, where the vibrations of the material reinforce the vibrations of the
exciting mechanism and to a great extent produce the sound. That's easy to
see if you compare the sound of a plucked string on an acoustic guitar with
the same string on a solid body electric. Worlds of difference.
Woodwinds and brass are a whole different ballgame. Compression
waves in the air itself cause the sound, and the walls of the instrument are
only there to define a shape for the air so that it can vibrate effectively.
To say that walls change the sound--assuming they are sufficiently rigid and
smooth--is like saying that the material of a rifle barrel affects how far a
bullet will travel and with what velocity. If two barrels are identical in
dimension and smoothness, and don't deform under the pressure of the
expanding gasses that propel the bullet then the trajectory of the
projectile is going to be the same. The same thing with instrument bodies.
Ad mouthpieces.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
What about differences in the coefficient of friction? As the
reed
vibrates there might (?) be more to its movement than simply
rolling
closed over the facing and rolling back off it (?).
Is it possible that the reed might actually go closed at the tip
first, then close up closer to the butt of the reed (of course,
still
on the vibrating portion of the reed), sliding the tip slightly,
then
as it comes back open, opens up first closer to the butt of the
reed,
causing the tip to slide, followed by the tip of the reed
opening up
again? Of course, this is just speculative pondering/"what if"
type
of stuff, but who knows the answers? I sure don't.
Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have shown what
the
exact form of vibration is? Ie: whether there is anything to my
speculative pondering or not?
DB
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...>
wrote:
> This opens the whole can of worms about whet effect the
material of
a mpc has on the tone. I personally think (based on all my
reading of
the science involved) that the effect is really minimal--almost
unnoticeable. I believe Phil Barone has said the same
thing--that as
long as the internal dimensions are similar the material doesn't
matter. On the other hand Jon van Wie thinks differently.
>
> The problem is that to really find out you have to eliminate
all
the variables except the material. This would mean making
identical
mpcs (at least inside dimensions) in different materials. Phil
has
that ability and I tend to side with him. Certainly the
acoustical
scientists would claim to a man that this is the case. They say
that
very small differences in the dimensions can make a big
difference,
but that materials of the same smoothness will all sound alike,
as
long as they are rigid enough not to deform under the pressure
of the
sound waves generated by the beating reed . There will be some
small
vibrational deformation of the material caused by the slap of
the
reed but it is not hard to see that that too is minimal compared
to
the displacement of the reed tip. There would be a slight
difference
based on the differing thermal coefficients, but we are talking
about
absolutely inaudible differences here.
>
> I'd be happy to send references if you are interested in
reading up
on the effects of wall materials in woodwind instruments.
>
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Ruhl
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
>
>
> This is where the material the mouthpiece is made from comes
into
play. The
> blends of rubber used to make the MC Gregory mouthpieces
were a
closely
> guarded secret. Ralph Morgan makes mention of this in a
series
of
> "Saxophone Journal" columns he wrote on Gregory mouthpieces.
>
> Mike
>
> >From: "Andre Rhieu <upgrade_complete@y...>"
> ><upgrade_complete@y...>
> >Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MC Gregory Model A alto
> >Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:34 -0000
> >
> >Ok, I know that this isn't the perfect place for this...
> >Is there anyone who is willing to sell an
> >
> >MC Gregory Model A alto in original 4A16?
> >
> >I have been looking for one everywhere without success
> >and i thought some of the mouthpiece enthuasists in
> >here might come across...
> >
> >If anyone has one or knows one really well, I have
> >a question. A Gregory model A is ostensibly
> >a really dark sounding piece, for its conservative
> >design(low chamber and round chamber, rounded innersided
> >walls), but I have read that it actually sounds
> >Bright in a unique way, plasticky and ringing? I hear that
> >sound in some of Art Pepper and Paul Desmond's tone.
> >Which area of the mouthpiece can create that unique
> >brightness in the tone despite its low baffle and
> >rounded inner sidewalls+round chamber? Could it be the
> >short facing? or the small tip opening? or what else?
> >A help from experienced people would be very appreciated.
> >
> >-Andre
> >
> >
>
>
>
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FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: MC Gregory Model A alto
>Perhaps these differences aren't able to measured by electronics. I >also >don't totally believe in the infallibility of electronics and >scientific >measurements either as the sensitivity of the human ear, >within the >hearing range is pretty astonishing. Hear, Hear! ;-) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
FROM: danny_tb (Danny Barrett <danny_tb@...>)
SUBJECT: Materials
Toby, Thanks for the reply. Quite interesting stuff. As an engineer, I can certainly relate to what you're saying (especially the "fluid mechanics" aspects). Personally, I believe that the material can make a difference, but not as much as most people might think (I like to be moderate in my thinking - at least to a certain extent). Of course, where there is no physically explainable reason for any difference, I believe that there isn't any difference (ie: if there is something that will cause a difference in the flow/vibration propagation characteristics, then sure - otherwise, I'm a sceptic). One of the main things (as far as I'm concerned) is the rigidity. With large square (wooden - square pipes are rarely metal - but there are certian to be exceptions) organ pipes, it is quite easy to feel them vibrating (if they're made too thin, they'll rattle in their stands, and in severe cases even sound dull and thin in tone), so the wood that they're made from is usually quite important (due to the different rigidity, etc, properties of different timbers). However, when it gets to the smaller pipes, the thickness of the wood becomes quite large compared to the amount of vibrating air, so the material that they're made of becomes less important, to the point where it's totally unimportant. In fact, it has been known for ranks of wooden pipes to suddenly break into being metal pipes in their top octave (and more surprisingly, for reed-pipes to break off into small flue- pipes (whistle type pipes) in their top octave), so this serves both points - depending on the scale of the material (and its rigidity) in comparison to the volume of air being set into vibration. As an interesting side-note, I made a 2 foot "saxophone" pipe as per the description in Audsley's 2nd volume. It's a square wooden flue (whistle) pipe, having various little things here and there that change the tone slightly (by varying the way that the wind stream passes over the lip of the pipe). Man, I tell you it had a nice, rich sax tone. Audsley reported that the only organ he found with this stop had a better tone than the sax player that he sent into the bowels of the organ so that he could compare the tone. I have to admit that it's tone isn't that of Stan Getz or Paul Desmond, but it is a *very* nice sax tone - and absolutely no reed. :-) Danny --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: > Some interesting points Danny, > > Bore smoothness apparently has a BIG effect on the sound (much more than the material). There is a boundary layer right next to the wall itself (out to about .1 mm if I remember correctly). Air molecues can be considerably slowed down and lose energy if the surface is rough. So the grain of the wood can have much more effect on the sound than the fact that the material is wood per se. The key is rigidity--as long as the rigidity is high enough the material makes no difference. > > There is a caveat in the material question and it concerns the thermal coefficient (I think it is called) of the material. So materials (like heavy draperies) absorb sound and convert the energy to heat. Other materials (like metals) don't (to the same degree). The range is rather wide, but in all materials used to make instruments the range is very narrow. We don't usually make instruments out of heavy draperies ;~) > > The only research ever to show that materials had an effect on the sound was a study done with organ pipes, but this was done with tubes that were square, and that makes a lot of difference. With tubes of elliptical or rectangular cross section the flat parts of the walls can be set to vibrating quite easily by the air column. This can't happen with round cross-sectional tubes--they can only expand and contract like a balloon being blown up. > > I used to "ping" a flute holding it at the tenon to feel how "alive" it was. Those kinds of vibrations are elliptical deformations of the tube and are caused by striking it at one point. The vibrating air column is pushing outward equally all around, so those kinds of vibrations do not happen while you are playing. > > Meaning no disrespect to anyone who believes differently, but I believe that 99% (at least) of differences perceived as due to materials has to do with the attitudes towards those materials of those concerned. The makers construct gold and platinum flutes more carefully, or the senior makers with more skill are assigned those instruments. And I know from my own case how much my preconceived notions of an instrument affect how I play it and adjust to its particular characteristics unconsciously, for better or worse. > > Maybe tomorrow those scientists will publish with findings that the materials do affect the response and tone and then I will have to rethink everything again, but until then I remain convinced that no one has shown that to be the case, and all claims to the contrary are unreliable because all other variables that have been shown to make a difference have not be considered and eliminated. > > I believed just the opposite for many years and I feel that I was "duped" and accepted the fact that gold flutes sound "richer" for instance without questioning it. I'm on my high horse here hoping to make people question their conclusions. If they come to a different opinion after really thinking it through that's fine, I'd just like to see them really explore the question in all its aspects. > > Don't forget that before Columbus almost everyone, learned scholars included, believed that the world was flat. And if it weren't for Copernicus we might still be thinking the universe revoles around the Earth. > > We would have had real trouble with those Moon shots ;~) > > Toby > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Danny Barrett <danny_tb@y...> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:52 PM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: MC Gregory Model A alto > > > Bootman has just jolted my memory.... > > During the time when I was a mad pipe-organ fanatic, I purchased the > two-volume set "The art of organ building" by Audsley (forgot his > Christian name). As far as organ pipes are concerned, both wooden and > metal pipes show different tonal characteristics according to the > material used. This isn't limited to whether it's pipe-metal > (basically solder), or wood, but also depends on what proportion of > the metal is tin, what proportion is lead, what proportion is another > alloying compound, or on the other hand, what type of wood it is, and > even how tight the grain is. > > However, this being said, it should be noted that the pipes are > usually thin enough to become a part of the whole resonance - it's > obvious that the material will have an effect in this case - the > microscopic deflections change the basic shape, and the tone > character. Where the material is thick enough to not resonate with > the sound waves, the only sound coulouring effect is the frequency > ranges that a particular material will absorb/reflect the best > (which, when all said and done, still comes down to microscopic > surface resonance effects). > > Thinking about it, a classic example is that of playing a sax against > a thick, solid plate-glass window, and then playing it against a > thick, solid piece of wooden furniture. The sound reflection from the > wood will invariably sound more warm than that from the glass, > irrespective of the smoothness of the finish of each material, etc. > This is, of course, playing the same horn, with the same mouthpiece, > same reed, same ligature, same embouchure, same note, etc, etc, etc, > within the same room, from the same position in the room. Basically, > there is an interaction between the material and the soundwaves (at > least in this instance), where one material will absorb certain > frequencies that another material won't (pointing back to the > microscopic stuff again). > > However, I don't know how far this effect goes - playing against > brick as opposed to concrete (of the same surface roughness) doesn't > seem to sound any different to each other (at least to me). Likewise > with smooth concrete, as opposed to plate glass (I haven't tried > playing against plate metal yet, so I can't comment on that one). > However, playing against concrete or glass sounds different (to me) > to playing against wood. The one thing that I have noticed is that > where the material is harder/more solid/more inflexible, the less > overtones it absorbs (pointing again to the microscopic stuff). It's > probably for this reason that playing against wood has the "warming" > effect: most types of wood are softer than glass and concrete (etc), > so it's surface is easier for the sound waves to deform > microscopically. > > But once again, it's really coming down to the difference between the > material taking part in the resonance, and the material simply > rigidly containing and shaping it - a difference that (to a large > extent, but certainly not 100%) depends on the thickness of the > material. > > Anyway, that's just another 2 cents worth. > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote: > > Toby, > > There is a difference between wood and the various other material > flutes are > > made of. I have played these model that you speak of and I am not a > fan of > > Haynes, they sound good up to a point but a good Muramatsu sounds > as good > > and probably is a little darker. I have played several $40,000 gold > flutes > > and they do take more air to get resonating than does an identical > model in > > solid silver. Silver does respond faster than does gold in terms of > a flute > > body. Platinum feels and plays differently again to both gold and > silver. I > > am fortunate enough to have access to well known flute maker who > has many of > > the head joints and flutes at hand. Personally I love the sound and > feel of > > Gold flutes ( I can't afford one though) so I use a solid silver > Muramatsu > > with a solid gold tube platinum lip and riser head joint. I also > have a > > solid silver head joint for this same flute, the sound difference > between > > these two head joints is dramatic. I also have a solid silver head > platinum > > lip and riser head joint to which responds very differently to the > gold tube > > head joint. I also have a wooden head joint for this same flute. > Each head > > joint changes the way these flutes behave and play. These are just > my own > > flutes, I have also played many more different flutes. > > > > There is a difference in playing of these various materials of > flute. These > > differences that are apparent to the player may not show up as > readily in a > > lab test. I may try this at home here and use a spectrum analysis > program. I > > will post the results. A = 440Hz and A = 880Hz.. > > > > Scientific or psuedo scientific studies are well and good but in > the end it > > comes down to what a given performer feels most comfortable with > when > > performing. We mustn't lose sight of the big picture here for the > details. > > > > A metal mpc does indeed respond differently to a Hard Rubber model > which > > again is different to a plastic model. > > Bootman > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.