is there a correlation between the length of a window and the length
of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window affects
intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size affects
intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
intonation and the saxophone? 

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "mdc5220" <chedoggy@e...> wrote:
> is there a correlation between the length of a window and the length
> of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window 
affects
> intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size 
affects
> intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
> intonation and the saxophone?

Well, I do know that the window is not allowed to extend farther than 
the facing!  Usually a long window makes for a louder sound.  The 
drawback is, that long windows have more of a reed-sealing problem 
than a short window.  I would not think that the window length would 
affect intonation.  However, if Van Wie did say that it does, I would 
respect his opinion.  BTW: the chamber size should be about equal in 
volume, to the volume of the missing cone of the neck piece.-- David K
 
 Paul C (tenorman)
is the expert here, (in this group) on saxophone int

I would suggest looking at Arthur Benade's papers and books.

http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/
http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/MARLhome.html
http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
http://www.vcisinc.com/acoustics.htm
http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/acoucomp/TeacherUpdate.html
http://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical





mdc5220 wrote:

>  is there a correlation between the length of a window and the length
> of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window affects
> intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size affects
> intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
> intonation and the saxophone?
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

guess i have some reading to do; thank you for the references; 
 sincerely, mdc

Paul Coats wrote:

> I would suggest looking at Arthur Benade's papers and books.
>
> http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/
> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/MARLhome.html
> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
> http://www.vcisinc.com/acoustics.htm
> http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/acoucomp/TeacherUpdate.html
> http://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical 
> <http://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical> 
>
>  
>  
>  
>
> mdc5220 wrote:
>
>>  is there a correlation between the length of a window and the length
>> of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window affects
>> intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size affects
>> intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
>> intonation and the saxophone?
>>  
>>
>> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
>> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>>
>> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>
> -- 
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>
>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>  
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>

Mike, the Benade papers are heavy duty study... get the coffee pot
plugged in.  All the math is there, if you can digest it... or do as I
do, and skip to the conclusions.

Most of it has to do with acoustics of the clarinet.  It might be good
to point out that Benade was a physicist, and a clarinetist.  But
modeling a clarinet is easier, just a cylinder.  However, most of his
conclusions are applicable to sax, too.

There is a good paper in there somewhere about concert halls, and one on
how the lungs, throat, mouth affect tone and pitch.

These are the most extensive, scientific, studies on woodwind acoustics
I know of.  I would like to thank Steve Goodson (www.saxgourmet.com),
and fellow Sax On The Web columnist, for turning me on to the Benade
papers.

There is also a paper at Stanford by Gary Scavone.  This is his doctoral
thesis, and you should find it (via a search on the stanford site) and
read it, too.

There is a chapter on mouthpieces in the Larry Teal "The Art Of
Saxophone Playing", and a discussion of mouthpieces/reeds in Ernest
Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My Voice".  Ferron goes a little further and
discusses how a hard reed on a long, narrow facing works to give a
darker tone, and a softer reed, on a shorter, wider facing, gives a
brighter tone.

Here in our archives are a pdf file, a three part column by Santy Runyon
(www.runyonproducts.com) in the old Woodwind World magazine from 1960.
He talks of the effects of facing length, tip opening, various contours
of facing, chambers, baffles, and all.  There was a five or six part
series by Santy Runyon in the old Woodwind magazine, c. 1952-53.  The
exact issues and page numbers are in the bibliography of older printings
Larry Teal's "The Art Of Saxophone Playing."  However, newer printings
have left out the bibliography altogether.  In speaking with Santy, he
told me that most of Teal's chapter on mouthpieces was actually based on
interviews in his studio in Chicago; Larry Teal had driven over from Ann
Arbor, MI for those interviews.  Santy, at nearly 96 years old, remains
a wonderful source of priceless information of all things saxophone,
especially mouthpieces.  He continues to design new mouthpieces and
other products for his company, Runyon Products.

Jon Van Wie has good information on his site, www.jonvanwie.com.

Go and kiss your wife now, because if you start reading all this, you
won't be finished until next year.  Hah!

Paul



"michael d. collins" wrote:

> guess i have some reading to do; thank you for the references;
> sincerely, mdc
>
> Paul Coats wrote:
>
>> I would suggest looking at Arthur Benade's papers and books.
>>
>> http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/
>> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/MARLhome.html
>> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
>> http://www.vcisinc.com/acoustics.htm
>> http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/acoucomp/TeacherUpdate.html
>>
>> ttp://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> mdc5220 wrote:
>>
>> >  is there a correlation between the length of a window and the
>> > length
>> > of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window
>> > affects
>> > intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size
>> > affects
>> > intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
>> > intonation and the saxophone?
>> >
>> >
>> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
>> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
>> > see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>> >
>> > To see and modify your groups, go to
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>> > Service.
>>
>> --
>> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>>
>>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>>
>> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>>
>>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>>
>> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>>
>>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>>
>> and view photos.
>>
>> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
>> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>>
>> To see and modify your groups, go to
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Windows can be much longer than the facing length.  Check out the 
Rovner pieces.  They work, but I do not see where extra long windows 
are an advantage.

If you lengthen a window on an existing piece it makes the chamber 
larger.  Perhaps that is the intonation effect JVW was commenting on.

As for the various papers and link to what is out there, be sure to 
look on the Mouthpiece Work site under "Links> Literature..".  The 
link to the Scavone paper is there as well as links to several other 
ones.

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Windows can be much longer than the facing length.  Check out the 
> Rovner pieces.  They work, but I do not see where extra long windows 
> are an advantage.
> 
I am thinking that if the Rovner pieces have such long windows (past 
the facing) that the advantage is the ease of manufacturing.  That is, 
the opening allows a CNC mill to get into and at, the chamber and 
bafle, with various metal cutters, as would be impossible with a small 
window.
Dav

>>>I am thinking that if the Rovner pieces have such long windows (past 
the facing) that the advantage is the ease of manufacturing.  That is, 
the opening allows a CNC mill to get into and at, the chamber and 
bafle, with various metal cutters, as would be impossible with a small 
window.
Dav<<<

I'll buy that.  But I can not see/hear a significant playing advantage.




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thanks paul, i've kissed my wife and started reading; mdc

Paul Coats wrote:

> Mike, the Benade papers are heavy duty study... get the coffee pot 
> plugged in.  All the math is there, if you can digest it... or do as I 
> do, and skip to the conclusions.
>
> Most of it has to do with acoustics of the clarinet.  It might be good 
> to point out that Benade was a physicist, and a clarinetist.  But 
> modeling a clarinet is easier, just a cylinder.  However, most of his 
> conclusions are applicable to sax, too.
>
> There is a good paper in there somewhere about concert halls, and one 
> on how the lungs, throat, mouth affect tone and pitch.
>
> These are the most extensive, scientific, studies on woodwind 
> acoustics I know of.  I would like to thank Steve Goodson 
> (www.saxgourmet.com), and fellow Sax On The Web columnist, for turning 
> me on to the Benade papers.
>
> There is also a paper at Stanford by Gary Scavone.  This is his 
> doctoral thesis, and you should find it (via a search on the stanford 
> site) and read it, too.
>
> There is a chapter on mouthpieces in the Larry Teal "The Art Of 
> Saxophone Playing", and a discussion of mouthpieces/reeds in Ernest 
> Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My Voice".  Ferron goes a little further 
> and discusses how a hard reed on a long, narrow facing works to give a 
> darker tone, and a softer reed, on a shorter, wider facing, gives a 
> brighter tone.
>
> Here in our archives are a pdf file, a three part column by Santy 
> Runyon (www.runyonproducts.com) in the old Woodwind World magazine 
> from 1960.  He talks of the effects of facing length, tip opening, 
> various contours of facing, chambers, baffles, and all.  There was a 
> five or six part series by Santy Runyon in the old Woodwind magazine, 
> c. 1952-53.  The exact issues and page numbers are in the bibliography 
> of older printings Larry Teal's "The Art Of Saxophone Playing."  
> However, newer printings have left out the bibliography altogether.  
> In speaking with Santy, he told me that most of Teal's chapter on 
> mouthpieces was actually based on interviews in his studio in Chicago; 
> Larry Teal had driven over from Ann Arbor, MI for those interviews.  
> Santy, at nearly 96 years old, remains a wonderful source of priceless 
> information of all things saxophone, especially mouthpieces.  He 
> continues to design new mouthpieces and other products for his 
> company, Runyon Products.
>
> Jon Van Wie has good information on his site, www.jonvanwie.com.
>
> Go and kiss your wife now, because if you start reading all this, you 
> won't be finished until next year.  Hah!
>
> Paul
>  
>  
>
> "michael d. collins" wrote:
>
>> guess i have some reading to do; thank you for the references;  
>> sincerely, mdc
>>
>> Paul Coats wrote:
>>
>>> I would suggest looking at Arthur Benade's papers and books.
>>>
>>> http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/
>>> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/MARLhome.html
>>> http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
>>> http://www.vcisinc.com/acoustics.htm
>>> http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/acoucomp/TeacherUpdate.html
>>> http://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical 
>>> <http://search.netscape.com/search.psp?cp=clkussrp&charset=UTF-8&search=benade+musical+acoustical> 
>>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>> mdc5220 wrote:
>>>
>>>>  is there a correlation between the length of a window and the length
>>>> of the facing? Van Wie suggests that the length of the window affects
>>>> intonation while the posts here suggest that the chamber size affects
>>>> intonation; does anyone know of any dissertations on the issue of
>>>> intonation and the saxophone?
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
>>>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to 
>>>> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>>>>
>>>> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
>>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>>>
>>>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>>>
>>> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>>>
>>>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>>>
>>> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>>>
>>>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>>>
>>> and view photos.
>>>
>>> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
>>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to 
>>> see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>>>
>>> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>>
>> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
>> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>>
>> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>>
> -- 
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>
>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>