I've put the stainless steel piece to bed now. I'm very happy with 
it, it really flies up the top, plays with a gutsy timbre (brassy 
muted trumpet kind of sound?) and is REALLY loud! - Definitely 
distinctive, which was one of my objectives.

I'm trying to make the aluminium version darker without losing the 
superb altissimo performance. I started by copying over the mods done 
on the SS blank, and found that it played very similar, but with 
slightly less edge (I guess as you'd expect).

I did not want to make the same mistake as on the first plastic blank 
(where I dressed the baffle out and lost altissimo performance), so I 
left the baffle more or less alone. I opened out the chamber to be 
quite big. The effect was to make the sound darker, and it does still 
retain its high altitude performance, but the piece is very difficult 
low down now. Low D warbles and tries to leap octaves, and lower 
notes are hard to get.

For the time being, I've taken a step back and rebuilt the chamber 
with aluminum epoxy in order to try again. Anyone got any clues what 
to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?

rgds,
John

So John, what is the shape of the break from the baffle to the chamber now? If you have a sharp edge you might want to round that down. You want a relatively smooth transition from baffle to chamber IMO, expecially if the baffle is very high and the chamber large. You could create some turbulence problems there otherwise, I think.

I have been experimenting with the idea of hollowing out the baffle--starting down about a half cm from the tip and creating a channel that eventually widens out in a kind of exponential shape as it moves down to join the chamber. Unfortunately I did this only on one mpc and so no longer have a "control" to measure it against. My feeling is that it "rounded" out the sound (this was to a Berg Larsen metal tenor piece)--a bit less edgy but still plenty bright with the characteristic Berg Larsen projection. I like the result mucho. No guarantees but you might want to give something like this a try. 

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Ricketts 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:36 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Soprano piece again!


  I've put the stainless steel piece to bed now. I'm very happy with 
  it, it really flies up the top, plays with a gutsy timbre (brassy 
  muted trumpet kind of sound?) and is REALLY loud! - Definitely 
  distinctive, which was one of my objectives.

  I'm trying to make the aluminium version darker without losing the 
  superb altissimo performance. I started by copying over the mods done 
  on the SS blank, and found that it played very similar, but with 
  slightly less edge (I guess as you'd expect).

  I did not want to make the same mistake as on the first plastic blank 
  (where I dressed the baffle out and lost altissimo performance), so I 
  left the baffle more or less alone. I opened out the chamber to be 
  quite big. The effect was to make the sound darker, and it does still 
  retain its high altitude performance, but the piece is very difficult 
  low down now. Low D warbles and tries to leap octaves, and lower 
  notes are hard to get.

  For the time being, I've taken a step back and rebuilt the chamber 
  with aluminum epoxy in order to try again. Anyone got any clues what 
  to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?

  rgds,
  John


  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

> Anyone got any clues what 
> to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
> 

The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are able 
to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.

I find that on soprano, more than the bigger saxes, the chamber size 
is critical to getting the sax to play in tune with itself.  One 
chamber size will not work for all sopranos and all players.  But it 
is good to have a chamber size that is near the missing volume of the 
sax body cone after the mouthpiece is tuned on the cork.

If the chamber is much larger than the needed volume, it will force 
you to jam it on the neck to tune the mid range of the sax.  High 
notes will be sharp in relation to the low notes.  The opposite 
happens if the chamber is too small.

Many well known mouthpiece experts state that making a chamber 
smaller makes the high notes go sharp.  This is only true if you do 
not retune the sax by pulling the mouthpiece out some.  Once you 
retune the sax to recover the needed chamber volume to play most of 
the notes in tune, the high notes will be flat.  

Anyone can test this for themselves by putting some temporary putty 
in their favorite mouthpiece to make the chamber smaller.  You need 
to use a chromatic tuner and you need to have a steady embouchure to 
see the results.

> I have been experimenting with the idea of hollowing out the baffle-
-starting down about a half cm from the tip and creating a channel 
that eventually widens out in a kind of exponential shape as it moves 
down to join the chamber. <

This sounds similar to Runyon's new Jaguar:
http://www.runyonproducts.com/jaguar.html

Absolutely right on--valuable info. Thanks Keith.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:26 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


  > Anyone got any clues what 
  > to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
  > 

  The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are able 
  to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.

  I find that on soprano, more than the bigger saxes, the chamber size 
  is critical to getting the sax to play in tune with itself.  One 
  chamber size will not work for all sopranos and all players.  But it 
  is good to have a chamber size that is near the missing volume of the 
  sax body cone after the mouthpiece is tuned on the cork.

  If the chamber is much larger than the needed volume, it will force 
  you to jam it on the neck to tune the mid range of the sax.  High 
  notes will be sharp in relation to the low notes.  The opposite 
  happens if the chamber is too small.

  Many well known mouthpiece experts state that making a chamber 
  smaller makes the high notes go sharp.  This is only true if you do 
  not retune the sax by pulling the mouthpiece out some.  Once you 
  retune the sax to recover the needed chamber volume to play most of 
  the notes in tune, the high notes will be flat.  

  Anyone can test this for themselves by putting some temporary putty 
  in their favorite mouthpiece to make the chamber smaller.  You need 
  to use a chromatic tuner and you need to have a steady embouchure to 
  see the results.


  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

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  To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

Yep, looks very similar.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:38 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


  > I have been experimenting with the idea of hollowing out the baffle-
  -starting down about a half cm from the tip and creating a channel 
  that eventually widens out in a kind of exponential shape as it moves 
  down to join the chamber. <

  This sounds similar to Runyon's new Jaguar:
  http://www.runyonproducts.com/jaguar.html


  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

Thanks (Mojo, Toby, et al). I'll put the leak light on it to check. 
Low notes sound beautifully on the SS mpc though. The main difference 
is that I have increased the chamber volume on the aluminium piece 
using a 3/8" sanding drum on the Dremel. The chamber is consequently 
very similar to the Runyon Jaguar, but it runs out into the baffle 
ramp. I have started to compromise the intonation now as well, so 
think the chamber is just too big. I'll have another tweak when the 
epoxy is dry.

Might try working the baffle out from the tip end this time.....



--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > Anyone got any clues what 
> > to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
> > 
> 
> The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are 
able 
> to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.
> 

Keith Bradbury wrote:

>  > Anyone got any clues what
> > to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
> >
>
> The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are able
> to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.

Low note warbles are also what happens when you hog the chamber out too
large.  Test it this way... tune the horn to your tuning note... is it
warbling on the low end?  Pull the piece, put in some putty, whatever
you use, reduce the chamber volume, replace it and tune again (it will
tune to a different position due to the volume change).  Now does it
warble?  If the warble went away, it was not due to a leak.

>
>
> I find that on soprano, more than the bigger saxes, the chamber size
> is critical to getting the sax to play in tune with itself.  One
> chamber size will not work for all sopranos and all players.  But it
> is good to have a chamber size that is near the missing volume of the
> sax body cone after the mouthpiece is tuned on the cork.
>

Absolutely... what it really affects is intonation in the palm keys.

>
> If the chamber is much larger than the needed volume, it will force
> you to jam it on the neck to tune the mid range of the sax.  High
> notes will be sharp in relation to the low notes.  The opposite
> happens if the chamber is too small.
>
> Many well known mouthpiece experts state that making a chamber
> smaller makes the high notes go sharp.

And they are all wrong.

> This is only true if you do
> not retune the sax by pulling the mouthpiece out some.  Once you
> retune the sax to recover the needed chamber volume to play most of
> the notes in tune, the high notes will be flat.
>
> Anyone can test this for themselves by putting some temporary putty
> in their favorite mouthpiece to make the chamber smaller.  You need
> to use a chromatic tuner and you need to have a steady embouchure to
> see the results.
>
>

I have seen this effect on soprano, AND bass sax... but with soprano it
come in with a vengence.

Even bass, the old saw, " you need a big, round chamber dill pickle mpce
to play a bass" is BS.  A big chamber bass piece makes our Buescher go a
half step sharp in the palm keys.

Paul


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

               http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Thanks. You were quite right. The chamber was just too big. Filling 
it back in a bit solved the problem. I'm trying other ways of making 
the sound darker now, but think I might have hit a limit if I want to 
keep the really good top end performance.


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Paul Coats <tenorman@t...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Keith Bradbury wrote:
> 
> >  > Anyone got any clues what
> > > to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
> > >
> >
> > The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are 
able
> > to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.
> 
> Low note warbles are also what happens when you hog the chamber out 
too
> large.  Test it this way... tune the horn to your tuning note... is 
it
> warbling on the low end?  Pull the piece, put in some putty, 
whatever
> you use, reduce the chamber volume, replace it and tune again (it 
will
> tune to a different position due to the volume change).  Now does it
> warble?  If the warble went away, it was not due to a leak.
> 
> >

Hi John,

There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end. First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you will still have the edge.

For me it's very hard to judge just how far to go with these things, and especially hard if I don't have something to compare it to for reference. Of course if you've already built the baffle up with epoxy you can always do it again...

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Ricketts 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:40 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


  Thanks. You were quite right. The chamber was just too big. Filling 
  it back in a bit solved the problem. I'm trying other ways of making 
  the sound darker now, but think I might have hit a limit if I want to 
  keep the really good top end performance.


  --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Paul Coats <tenorman@t...> wrote:
  > 
  > 
  > Keith Bradbury wrote:
  > 
  > >  > Anyone got any clues what
  > > > to do next? Did I just take the chamber out too big?
  > > >
  > >
  > > The low note warbles are usually due to a leak.  Perhaps you are 
  able
  > > to blow through the leak with certain mouthpiece/reed set-ups.
  > 
  > Low note warbles are also what happens when you hog the chamber out 
  too
  > large.  Test it this way... tune the horn to your tuning note... is 
  it
  > warbling on the low end?  Pull the piece, put in some putty, 
  whatever
  > you use, reduce the chamber volume, replace it and tune again (it 
  will
  > tune to a different position due to the volume change).  Now does it
  > warble?  If the warble went away, it was not due to a leak.
  > 
  > >



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  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

I'll continue to play with it, and try your suggestions. I reckon 
there must be a point where changes that slug the partials and 
harmonics mean that it is more difficult to excite them at will when 
you go for the high notes. Have you (or anybody?) ever played a nice 
dark sop mpc that does really good altissimo as well? 

John

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a 
bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end. 
First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's 
not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady 
hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you 
manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth 
the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the 
lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some 
might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the 
baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you 
will still have the edge.

It has been my experience that mouthpieces that are very dark do not
respond well with altissimo, for exactly the reason you state... they
are made to suppress higher partials... which is what altissimo is.

Paul

John Ricketts wrote:

>  I'll continue to play with it, and try your suggestions. I reckon
> there must be a point where changes that slug the partials and
> harmonics mean that it is more difficult to excite them at will when
> you go for the high notes. Have you (or anybody?) ever played a nice
> dark sop mpc that does really good altissimo as well?
>
> John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a
> bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end.
> First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's
> not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady
> hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you
> manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth
> the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the
> lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some
> might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the
> baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you
> will still have the edge.
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I have not had much luck with sop altissimo (nor have I really tried much), but I have no trouble getting up there on tenor with an old M.C. Gregory mpc with no baffle and a reasonably large chamber, nor a modern Yani 7. The altissimos are after all no higher than the third or fourth partial, and the higher partials that we are talking about  when we speak of "edge" on a high baffle piece extend up to the 7th partial and beyond. So I'm not convinced that the different partial characteristics of different mpcs is the main factor in altissimo response. Still it may be true that the increased loading on the reed with a high baffle piece may somehow facilitate altissimos, especially with a sop. Just a thought.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Coats 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 3:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


  It has been my experience that mouthpieces that are very dark do not respond well with altissimo, for exactly the reason you state... they are made to suppress higher partials... which is what altissimo is. 
  Paul 

  John Ricketts wrote: 

     I'll continue to play with it, and try your suggestions. I reckon 
    there must be a point where changes that slug the partials and 
    harmonics mean that it is more difficult to excite them at will when 
    you go for the high notes. Have you (or anybody?) ever played a nice 
    dark sop mpc that does really good altissimo as well? 
    John 

    --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote: 
    > Hi John, 
    > 
    > There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a 
    bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end. 
    First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's 
    not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady 
    hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you 
    manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth 
    the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the 
    lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some 
    might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the 
    baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you 
    will still have the edge. 
      
      


    Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 

    Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. 

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    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

  -- 
  Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web": 

    http://www.saxontheweb.net 

  or directly to Paul's articles at: 

    http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/ 

  Listen to Paul's MP3's at: 

                  http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952 

  and view photos. 
    

A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My Voice", page
31:

 "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose frequencies are
always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials are sound
components outside that series."

By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed of the
upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?

I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that made
altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing mouthpieces.  I had
an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to a .100" tip
opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave the
"purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn of any
mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with a rubber
Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.

It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more accustomed
to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc Tenney) have
posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to coax the
altissimo out of a mouthpiece.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Coats" <tenorman@...>
To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


> It has been my experience that mouthpieces that are very dark do not
> respond well with altissimo, for exactly the reason you state... they
> are made to suppress higher partials... which is what altissimo is.
>
> Paul
>
> John Ricketts wrote:
>
> >  I'll continue to play with it, and try your suggestions. I reckon
> > there must be a point where changes that slug the partials and
> > harmonics mean that it is more difficult to excite them at will when
> > you go for the high notes. Have you (or anybody?) ever played a nice
> > dark sop mpc that does really good altissimo as well?
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a
> > bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end.
> > First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's
> > not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady
> > hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you
> > manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth
> > the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the
> > lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some
> > might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the
> > baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you
> > will still have the edge.
> >
> >
> >
> >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>                         ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
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> > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> --
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>
>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


> It has been my experience that mouthpieces that are very dark do not
respond well with altissimo, for exactly the reason you state... they are
made to suppress higher partials... which is what altissimo is.
> Paul
>
> John Ricketts wrote:
>
>    I'll continue to play with it, and try your suggestions. I reckon
>   there must be a point where changes that slug the partials and
>   harmonics mean that it is more difficult to excite them at will when
>   you go for the high notes. Have you (or anybody?) ever played a nice
>   dark sop mpc that does really good altissimo as well?
>   John
>
>   --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
>   > Hi John,
>   >
>   > There are a couple of things you might try to darken the piece a
>   bit, but I am really not sure how they would affect your top end.
>   First would be to cut your baffle down just behind the tip rail. It's
>   not an easy task, especially with a metal piece. You need a steady
>   hand with a Dremel (actually I recommend a Dremel stand). If you
>   manage this successfully I think you will find that it will smooth
>   the sound quite a bit by reducing the ratio of top partials to the
>   lower ones. The piece will project but it won't be as bright (some
>   might say thin). The other, easier option is to take the back of the
>   baffle down. That, I think, will give the sound more body, but you
>   will still have the edge.
>
>
>
>
>   Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
>   To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> --
> Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net
>
> or directly to Paul's articles at:
>
>   http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/
>
> Listen to Paul's MP3's at:
>
>                 http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
>
> and view photos.
>
>

Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo 
working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?

I can play altissimo on alto with any of my 6 (or 7?) mouthpieces 
with no problem at least up to D. When pushing the limits to find 
just where i could get to, I found that a Lawton 5*BB in stainless 
steel really whistled up till the dogs got upset (Didn't like it 
overall though, and traded it for an 8*BB).

Soprano's are much more difficult to excite harmonics on, because of 
the short tube length. I have been unable to play altissimo on sop 
without a high-baffled mouthpiece, and hence my new design (which I 
am ecstatic about, and getting ready for a first run of 10 off).

If you are referring to soprano's, which mouthpiece(s) in particular?

Thanks,
John


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote:
> A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My 
Voice", page
> 31:
> 
>  "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose 
frequencies are
> always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials 
are sound
> components outside that series."
> 
> By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed 
of the
> upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?
> 
> I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that made
> altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing 
mouthpieces.  I had
> an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to 
a .100" tip
> opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave the
> "purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn 
of any
> mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with a 
rubber
> Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.
> 
> It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more 
accustomed
> to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc 
Tenney) have
> posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to 
coax the
> altissimo out of a mouthpiece.
> 
> Mike

Actually John, it isn't particularly hard to get altissimo on a Link metal
on a Sop or even a Selmer super Session either, nor on a Lawton. It is
simply a matter of throat position and air speed. I find Sop altissimo very
similar to high note playing on the clarinet.
Later
God Bless
Bootman
Richard Booth
www.bootmanmusic.com

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 7:54 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo
working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?

I can play altissimo on alto with any of my 6 (or 7?) mouthpieces
with no problem at least up to D. When pushing the limits to find
just where i could get to, I found that a Lawton 5*BB in stainless
steel really whistled up till the dogs got upset (Didn't like it
overall though, and traded it for an 8*BB).

Soprano's are much more difficult to excite harmonics on, because of
the short tube length. I have been unable to play altissimo on sop
without a high-baffled mouthpiece, and hence my new design (which I
am ecstatic about, and getting ready for a first run of 10 off).

If you are referring to soprano's, which mouthpiece(s) in particular?

Thanks,
John


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote:
> A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My
Voice", page
> 31:
>
>  "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose
frequencies are
> always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials
are sound
> components outside that series."
>
> By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed
of the
> upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?
>
> I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that made
> altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing
mouthpieces.  I had
> an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to
a .100" tip
> opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave the
> "purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn
of any
> mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with a
rubber
> Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.
>
> It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more
accustomed
> to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc
Tenney) have
> posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to
coax the
> altissimo out of a mouthpiece.
>
> Mike



Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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I guess I've never tried the right pieces. I only double on soprano 
occasionally, and usually on a vandoren s35 (on which altissimo IS 
impossible!) 


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> Actually John, it isn't particularly hard to get altissimo on a 
Link metal
> on a Sop or even a Selmer super Session either, nor on a Lawton. It 
is
> simply a matter of throat position and air speed. I find Sop 
altissimo very
> similar to high note playing on the clarinet.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@c...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 7:54 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@y...
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo
> working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?
> 
> I can play altissimo on alto with any of my 6 (or 7?) mouthpieces
> with no problem at least up to D. When pushing the limits to find
> just where i could get to, I found that a Lawton 5*BB in stainless
> steel really whistled up till the dogs got upset (Didn't like it
> overall though, and traded it for an 8*BB).
> 
> Soprano's are much more difficult to excite harmonics on, because of
> the short tube length. I have been unable to play altissimo on sop
> without a high-baffled mouthpiece, and hence my new design (which I
> am ecstatic about, and getting ready for a first run of 10 off).
> 
> If you are referring to soprano's, which mouthpiece(s) in 
particular?
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote:
> > A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My
> Voice", page
> > 31:
> >
> >  "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose
> frequencies are
> > always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials
> are sound
> > components outside that series."
> >
> > By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed
> of the
> > upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?
> >
> > I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that 
made
> > altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing
> mouthpieces.  I had
> > an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to
> a .100" tip
> > opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave 
the
> > "purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn
> of any
> > mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with 
a
> rubber
> > Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.
> >
> > It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more
> accustomed
> > to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc
> Tenney) have
> > posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to
> coax the
> > altissimo out of a mouthpiece.
> >
> > Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@y...
> 
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to 
see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> 
> To see and modify your groups, go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John,
Try a slightly more open mpc and see wether this actually solves this
altissimo problem. Actually the altissimo on a Soprano is pretty
ridiculously high anyway and has limited application other than terrorising
lead trumpeters or piccolo players.
Later
God Bless
Bootman
Richard Booth
www.bootmanmusic.com

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 11:11 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


I guess I've never tried the right pieces. I only double on soprano
occasionally, and usually on a vandoren s35 (on which altissimo IS
impossible!)


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> Actually John, it isn't particularly hard to get altissimo on a
Link metal
> on a Sop or even a Selmer super Session either, nor on a Lawton. It
is
> simply a matter of throat position and air speed. I find Sop
altissimo very
> similar to high note playing on the clarinet.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@c...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 7:54 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@y...
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!
>
>
> Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo
> working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?
>
> I can play altissimo on alto with any of my 6 (or 7?) mouthpieces
> with no problem at least up to D. When pushing the limits to find
> just where i could get to, I found that a Lawton 5*BB in stainless
> steel really whistled up till the dogs got upset (Didn't like it
> overall though, and traded it for an 8*BB).
>
> Soprano's are much more difficult to excite harmonics on, because of
> the short tube length. I have been unable to play altissimo on sop
> without a high-baffled mouthpiece, and hence my new design (which I
> am ecstatic about, and getting ready for a first run of 10 off).
>
> If you are referring to soprano's, which mouthpiece(s) in
particular?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote:
> > A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My
> Voice", page
> > 31:
> >
> >  "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose
> frequencies are
> > always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials
> are sound
> > components outside that series."
> >
> > By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed
> of the
> > upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?
> >
> > I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that
made
> > altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing
> mouthpieces.  I had
> > an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to
> a .100" tip
> > opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave
the
> > "purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn
> of any
> > mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with
a
> rubber
> > Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.
> >
> > It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more
> accustomed
> > to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc
> Tenney) have
> > posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to
> coax the
> > altissimo out of a mouthpiece.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@y...
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo
>working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?

No, I was referring to tenor altissimo.  Sorry if that was off-topic.

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid963

So true, Bootman, but I do find the altissimo F#'s, G's, G# and A very
useful.  Just adding those few notes to the "normal" range is a big
help.

We regularly perform Paul Cohen's arr of Shepard's Hey (Percy Grainger),
which has high G's and A's in several places.

Paul

Bootman wrote:

>  John,
> Try a slightly more open mpc and see wether this actually solves this
> altissimo problem. Actually the altissimo on a Soprano is pretty
> ridiculously high anyway and has limited application other than
> terrorising
> lead trumpeters or piccolo players.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 11:11 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!
>
>
> I guess I've never tried the right pieces. I only double on soprano
> occasionally, and usually on a vandoren s35 (on which altissimo IS
> impossible!)
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> > Actually John, it isn't particularly hard to get altissimo on a
> Link metal
> > on a Sop or even a Selmer super Session either, nor on a Lawton. It
> is
> > simply a matter of throat position and air speed. I find Sop
> altissimo very
> > similar to high note playing on the clarinet.
> > Later
> > God Bless
> > Bootman
> > Richard Booth
> > www.bootmanmusic.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@c...]
> > Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 7:54 PM
> > To: MouthpieceWork@y...
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your input Mike. However, when you mention altissimo
> > working for you on "dark" pieces, is this in relation to soprano's?
> >
> > I can play altissimo on alto with any of my 6 (or 7?) mouthpieces
> > with no problem at least up to D. When pushing the limits to find
> > just where i could get to, I found that a Lawton 5*BB in stainless
> > steel really whistled up till the dogs got upset (Didn't like it
> > overall though, and traded it for an 8*BB).
> >
> > Soprano's are much more difficult to excite harmonics on, because of
>
> > the short tube length. I have been unable to play altissimo on sop
> > without a high-baffled mouthpiece, and hence my new design (which I
> > am ecstatic about, and getting ready for a first run of 10 off).
> >
> > If you are referring to soprano's, which mouthpiece(s) in
> particular?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Mike Ruhl" <mikeruhl@h...> wrote:
> > > A minor point, referencing Ernest Ferron's "The Saxophone Is My
> > Voice", page
> > > 31:
> > >
> > >  "Remember that, harmonics are the sound components whose
> > frequencies are
> > > always whole multiples of the fundamental's frequency and partials
>
> > are sound
> > > components outside that series."
> > >
> > > By this definition, isn't the altissimo register actually composed
>
> > of the
> > > upper "harmonics", as opposed to "partials"?
> > >
> > > I bring this up because the mouthpieces that I have played that
> made
> > > altissimo  the easiest for me have all been dark-playing
> > mouthpieces.  I had
> > > an old MC Gregory tenor 5A-20 that was refaced by Jey Clark to
> > a .100" tip
> > > opening.  That mouthpiece would play G3-C4 very easily, and gave
> the
> > > "purest" fundamental sound throughout the normal range of the horn
>
> > of any
> > > mouthpiece I've ever played.  I have also had better success with
> a
> > rubber
> > > Link 7* than with other higher-baffle mouthpieces.
> > >
> > > It could be that, as a long-time Link 7* player, I'm simply more
> > accustomed
> > > to the larger-chambered mouthpieces.  Then again, Mojo (and Doc
> > Tenney) have
> > > posted out at SOTW that tweaking the tip rail is the best way to
> > coax the
> > > altissimo out of a mouthpiece.
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@y...
> >
> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
> see the
> > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

More open than an S35???

With the benefit of hindsight, if I went to buy a sop piece now I'd 
go for the shortest lay, quite open with reasonably high baffle. The 
Vandoren S35 has a long lay which may be what makes altissimo 
difficult. 


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> John,
> Try a slightly more open mpc and see wether this actually solves 
this
> altissimo problem. Actually the altissimo on a Soprano is pretty
> ridiculously high anyway and has limited application other than 
terrorising
> lead trumpeters or piccolo players.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com

Try a Selmer super session, similar sound and feel but will play altissimo.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 26 November 2002 7:40 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


More open than an S35???

With the benefit of hindsight, if I went to buy a sop piece now I'd
go for the shortest lay, quite open with reasonably high baffle. The
Vandoren S35 has a long lay which may be what makes altissimo
difficult.


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> John,
> Try a slightly more open mpc and see wether this actually solves
this
> altissimo problem. Actually the altissimo on a Soprano is pretty
> ridiculously high anyway and has limited application other than
terrorising
> lead trumpeters or piccolo players.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com



Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Yes, shorter lays are better on the high end.

Paul

John Ricketts wrote:

>  More open than an S35???
>
> With the benefit of hindsight, if I went to buy a sop piece now I'd
> go for the shortest lay, quite open with reasonably high baffle. The
> Vandoren S35 has a long lay which may be what makes altissimo
> difficult.
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Bootman" <rbooth@b...> wrote:
> > John,
> > Try a slightly more open mpc and see wether this actually solves
> this
> > altissimo problem. Actually the altissimo on a Soprano is pretty
> > ridiculously high anyway and has limited application other than
> terrorising
> > lead trumpeters or piccolo players.
> > Later
> > God Bless
> > Bootman
> > Richard Booth
> > www.bootmanmusic.com
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I find long facing lengths sound the best on soprano.  Especially when
using Fibracell reeds.  A nice full sounding tone on the dark side.  I
would hate to give up tone in the normal range to go after high altissimo
that you will rarely use.  I can still get up to C4 easy enough with long facings.

__________________________________________________
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My findings too. Hence the 19mm facing and long window on my new one. 
It goes MUCH higher than C4! (with a drilled V16 2.5!) Still not sure 
how much use I'll find for this on gigs though!

rgds,
John

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I find long facing lengths sound the best on soprano.  Especially 
when
> using Fibracell reeds.  A nice full sounding tone on the dark 
side.  I
> would hate to give up tone in the normal range to go after high 
altissimo
> that you will rarely use.  I can still get up to C4 easy enough 
with long facings.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com

This is the point, how much use really are the notes above C4 on Sop anyway.
Teh next thing after getting these notes is to bring them into comfortable
usage as though they were part of the normal range.
Later
God Bless
Bootman
Richard Booth
www.bootmanmusic.com

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
Sent: Thursday, 28 November 2002 1:58 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


My findings too. Hence the 19mm facing and long window on my new one.
It goes MUCH higher than C4! (with a drilled V16 2.5!) Still not sure
how much use I'll find for this on gigs though!

rgds,
John

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I find long facing lengths sound the best on soprano.  Especially
when
> using Fibracell reeds.  A nice full sounding tone on the dark
side.  I
> would hate to give up tone in the normal range to go after high
altissimo
> that you will rarely use.  I can still get up to C4 easy enough
with long facings.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com


Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The most valuable altissimo notes are F#3, G3, G#3, A3, and up to C4.
But if we can get the F#-A, we have added an important extension to our
range.

Paul

Bootman wrote:

>  This is the point, how much use really are the notes above C4 on Sop
> anyway.
> Teh next thing after getting these notes is to bring them into
> comfortable
> usage as though they were part of the normal range.
> Later
> God Bless
> Bootman
> Richard Booth
> www.bootmanmusic.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ricketts [mailto:Dr_John_Ricketts@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 28 November 2002 1:58 AM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!
>
>
> My findings too. Hence the 19mm facing and long window on my new one.
> It goes MUCH higher than C4! (with a drilled V16 2.5!) Still not sure
> how much use I'll find for this on gigs though!
>
> rgds,
> John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > I find long facing lengths sound the best on soprano.  Especially
> when
> > using Fibracell reeds.  A nice full sounding tone on the dark
> side.  I
> > would hate to give up tone in the normal range to go after high
> altissimo
> > that you will rarely use.  I can still get up to C4 easy enough
> with long facings.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Anyone have the fingering for C4 on sopranino? 



 

Octave Key, Eb and D palm keys.

or

Octave key, LH1, LH3, RH1, RH3, low Eb key

Thaddeus Mugwump wrote:

>
>
> Anyone have the fingering for C4 on sopranino?
>
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

Sopranino C5:

Oct Key, High F, LH1, LH3, LH5, LH6, RH2, High G, Side C, RF4, LF2, do the
hokey pokey, aux appendage 1, Low Eb.

But the fingering is not that important.  Your dog has to hear it first.



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Hmm. Doesn't quite work for me, but if you play lying on your back 
you can use left-big-toe instead of LH6 right?


-- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Sopranino C5:
> 
> Oct Key, High F, LH1, LH3, LH5, LH6, RH2, High G, Side C, RF4, LF2, 
do the
> hokey pokey, aux appendage 1, Low Eb.
> 
> But the fingering is not that important.  Your dog has to hear it 
first.
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com

>>The altissimos are after all no higher than the third or fourth
partial, and the higher partials that we are talking about  when we
speak of "edge" on a high baffle piece extend up to the 7th partial
and beyond. 

This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
to me?

Thank you,

David

Partials are overtones, usually whole number multiples of the fundamental frequency.
   
  Paul

David Kulcinski <dkulcinski@...> wrote:
          >>The altissimos are after all no higher than the third or fourth
partial, and the higher partials that we are talking about when we
speak of "edge" on a high baffle piece extend up to the 7th partial
and beyond. 

This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
to me?

Thank you,

David



                         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "David Kulcinski" 
<dkulcinski@...> wrote:
>
> This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
> to me?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> David
>
A partial refers to a harmonic overtone. An easily understood corollary 
would be the harmonic overtone series on a bugle played by lip and air 
pressure manipulation.  The saxophone is capable of playing the 
harmonic overtone series also from a held low tone by manipulation of 
the embouchure and larnyx.  For instance low Bb would be the 
fundamental tone. Then the next partial in the harmonic overtone series 
would be middle line treble clef Bb followed by top line F, then Bb 
above one ledger line, then D above 2 ledger lines, then F above three, 
Ab above four, etc.  Playing these partials from the fundamental tone 
on the saxophone is a good control exercise for the altissimo register.

Thank you, Paul.  Thank you, Greg.  I understand the concept of fundamental and harmonics.  I just have never heard of them referred to as "partials".  Where does the term come from; the fact that the wavelength of the harmonic  frequency is a "partial" of the fundamental?

Thank you,

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Wier <gregwier@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:36:18 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!









  


    
            --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "David Kulcinski" 

<dkulcinski@ ...> wrote:

>

> This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"

> to me?

> 

> Thank you,

> 

> David

>

A partial refers to a harmonic overtone. An easily understood corollary 

would be the harmonic overtone series on a bugle played by lip and air 

pressure manipulation.  The saxophone is capable of playing the 

harmonic overtone series also from a held low tone by manipulation of 

the embouchure and larnyx.  For instance low Bb would be the 

fundamental tone. Then the next partial in the harmonic overtone series 

would be middle line treble clef Bb followed by top line F, then Bb 

above one ledger line, then D above 2 ledger lines, then F above three, 

Ab above four, etc.  Playing these partials from the fundamental tone 

on the saxophone is a good control exercise for the altissimo register.





    
  

    
    




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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Sometimes there are higher frequencies present that are not whole number multiples of the fundamental, whereas overtones are whole number multiples.  All of these are referred to as partials, that is, they are part of the tone as a whole.
   
  What does this really mean?  It means that the waveform deviates slighly from what it should.
   
  A saxophone waveform should be a "sawtooth wave", that is, one that rises vertically, comes down at a constant angle, rises vertically again, etc.  It contains the fundamental and both odd numbered and even numbered overtones that combine to give the sawtooth waveform.
   
  A clarinet waveform should be a "square wave" or buttress shaped wave.  It is one that rises vertically, goes horizontal, falls vertically, goes horizontal, rises vertically, etc.  It contains the fundamental and only odd numbered overtones that combine to give the squarewave.
   
  But in the real world when these tones are graphed there are squiggles present which do not correspond to the the perfect waveforms we predict.  Clarinet waveforms contain a small amount of a few even numbered overtones.  Saxophone tone may contain a higher amount of odd overtones than it should.  Usually the fundamental is weaker by several db than the 2 x f overtone.  And the 3 x f overtone is nearly as strong as the one just below it.  
   
  And there may be other frequencies present.  
   
  In short, everything that is not the fundamental frequency is a partial.
   
  Paul

David Kulcinski <dkulcinski@...> wrote:
              Thank you, Paul.  Thank you, Greg.  I understand the concept of fundamental and harmonics.  I just have never heard of them referred to as "partials".  Where does the term come from; the fact that the wavelength of the harmonic  frequency is a "partial" of the fundamental?

Thank you,

David

  ----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Wier <gregwier@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:36:18 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!

    --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "David Kulcinski" 
<dkulcinski@ ...> wrote:
>
> This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
> to me?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> David
>
A partial refers to a harmonic overtone. An easily understood corollary 
would be the harmonic overtone series on a bugle played by lip and air 
pressure manipulation. The saxophone is capable of playing the 
harmonic overtone series also from a held low tone by manipulation of 
the embouchure and larnyx. For instance low Bb would be the 
fundamental tone. Then the next partial in the harmonic overtone series 
would be middle line treble clef Bb followed by top line F, then Bb 
above one ledger line, then D above 2 ledger lines, then F above three, 
Ab above four, etc. Playing these partials from the fundamental tone 
on the saxophone is a good control exercise for the altissimo register.








  
---------------------------------
  Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.  

                         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

That's a splendid explanation of a complex topic. Thanks, Paul!

  _____  

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Paul C.
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:45 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!




Sometimes there are higher frequencies present that are not whole number
multiples of the fundamental, whereas overtones are whole number multiples.
All of these are referred to as partials, that is, they are part of the tone
as a whole.
 
What does this really mean?  It means that the waveform deviates slighly
from what it should.
 
A saxophone waveform should be a "sawtooth wave", that is, one that rises
vertically, comes down at a constant angle, rises vertically again, etc.  It
contains the fundamental and both odd numbered and even numbered overtones
that combine to give the sawtooth waveform.
 
A clarinet waveform should be a "square wave" or buttress shaped wave.  It
is one that rises vertically, goes horizontal, falls vertically, goes
horizontal, rises vertically, etc.  It contains the fundamental and only odd
numbered overtones that combine to give the squarewave.
 
But in the real world when these tones are graphed there are squiggles
present which do not correspond to the the perfect waveforms we predict.
Clarinet waveforms contain a small amount of a few even numbered overtones.
Saxophone tone may contain a higher amount of odd overtones than it should.
Usually the fundamental is weaker by several db than the 2 x f overtone.
And the 3 x f overtone is nearly as strong as the one just below it.  
 
And there may be other frequencies present.  
 
In short, everything that is not the fundamental frequency is a partial.
 
Paul

David Kulcinski <dkulcinski@...> wrote:

Thank you, Paul.  Thank you, Greg.  I understand the concept of fundamental
and harmonics.  I just have never heard of them referred to as "partials".
Where does the term come from; the fact that the wavelength of the harmonic
frequency is a "partial" of the fundamental?

Thank you,

David


----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Wier <gregwier@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:36:18 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!


--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com> , "David Kulcinski" 
<dkulcinski@ ...> wrote:
>
> This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
> to me?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> David
>
A partial refers to a harmonic overtone. An easily understood corollary 
would be the harmonic overtone series on a bugle played by lip and air 
pressure manipulation. The saxophone is capable of playing the 
harmonic overtone series also from a held low tone by manipulation of 
the embouchure and larnyx. For instance low Bb would be the 
fundamental tone. Then the next partial in the harmonic overtone series 
would be middle line treble clef Bb followed by top line F, then Bb 
above one ledger line, then D above 2 ledger lines, then F above three, 
Ab above four, etc. Playing these partials from the fundamental tone 
on the saxophone is a good control exercise for the altissimo register.




  _____  

Looking for a deal? Find
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evtG094/*http://farechase.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFi
cDJoNDllBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwMxMwRzZWMDZ3JvdXBzBHNsawNlbWFpbC1uY20-> great
prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. 




Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@... 


  _____  

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evtH223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamek
ey=monopolyherenow> Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy)
at Yahoo! Games. 

 

Thanks.  I'll have to try to find a spectrum analyzer & take a look.

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul C. <tenorman1952@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:45:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!









  


    
            
Sometimes there are higher frequencies present that are not whole number multiples of the fundamental, whereas overtones are whole number multiples.  All of these are referred to as partials, that is, they are part of the tone as a whole.
   
  What does this really mean?  It means that the waveform deviates slighly from what it should.
   
  A saxophone waveform should be a "sawtooth wave", that is, one that rises vertically, comes down at a constant angle, rises vertically again, etc.  It contains the fundamental and both odd numbered and even numbered overtones that combine to give the sawtooth waveform.
   
  A clarinet waveform should be a "square wave" or buttress shaped wave.  It is one that rises vertically, goes horizontal, falls vertically, goes horizontal, rises vertically, etc.  It contains the fundamental and only odd numbered overtones that combine to give
 the squarewave.
   
  But in the real world when these tones are graphed there are squiggles present which do not correspond to the the perfect waveforms we predict.  Clarinet waveforms contain a small amount of a few even numbered overtones.  Saxophone tone may contain a higher amount of odd overtones than it should.  Usually the fundamental is weaker by several db than the 2 x f overtone.  And the 3 x f overtone is nearly as strong as the one just below it.  
   
  And there may be other frequencies present.  
   
  In short, everything that is not the fundamental frequency is a partial.
   
  Paul

David Kulcinski <dkulcinski@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Thank you, Paul.  Thank you, Greg.  I understand the concept of fundamental and harmonics.  I just have never heard of them referred to as "partials".  Where does the term come from; the fact that the wavelength of the harmonic  frequency is a "partial" of the fundamental?

Thank you,

David

  ----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Wier <gregwier@netscape. com>
To:
 MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:36:18 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano piece again!

    --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "David Kulcinski" 
<dkulcinski@ ...> wrote:
>
> This may be a really dumb question, but can anyone explain "partial"
> to me?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> David
>
A partial refers to a harmonic overtone. An easily understood corollary 
would be the harmonic overtone series on a bugle played by lip and air 
pressure manipulation. The saxophone is capable of playing the 
harmonic overtone series also from a held low tone by manipulation of 
the embouchure and larnyx. For instance low Bb would be the 
fundamental tone. Then the next partial in the harmonic overtone series 
would be middle line treble clef Bb
 followed by top line F, then Bb 
above one ledger line, then D above 2 ledger lines, then F above three, 
Ab above four, etc. Playing these partials from the fundamental tone 
on the saxophone is a good control exercise for the altissimo register.








    Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.  





Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet" :
		http://www.saxgourm et.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase. yahoo.com/ tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax. com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@saxrax. com 
      
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

    
  

    
    




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