Morning all,

Just took delivery of some prototypes of a soprano mpc that I have 
designed. Did it using Inventor as a solid model and mailed it to a 
CNC bureau directly. I got 3 prototypes, in black plastic, aluminium 
and stainless steel.

I have dropped a jpg rendering (JR_proto.jpg) in the soprano section 
of the files menu. 

The objective was to get a mpc that would play good altissimo (that 
is, actually allow you to get the notes and stay in tune!). The 
facing is pretty much as the Vandoren S35.

Without hand working at all, the pieces do play all the way. In 
particular, the stainless steel one really screams and actually stays 
almost perfectly in pitch on the front F.

Note the tip rail, baffle and long window. The problem I have is that 
the piece is probably too bright for most people. I have already 
destroyed the plastic one by tinkering with the baffle and tip rail. 
I did make it sound much warmer, but found that as soon as I started 
on the tip rail or baffle it lost its fantastic altissimo ability. 
The question is, how can I warm up this piece without losing its 
fantastic high-end ability (or can't you have both)?

tia,
John

Very interesting!  I copied the picture over to the Photo area too.

If you have not done so, see my post # 239 in the Messages.  I talk 
about working the tip rail area for high altissimo.  For lower 
altissimo, like F3-A3, I think it is more about getting the right 
resistance a few mms away from the tip.  Long vs medium facings 
should have little or nothing to do with it.

To fatten up the sound, I would look at lowering the baffle near the 
tip rail.  Actually, I think you need to establish a defined tip 
rail.  It nowlooks like the roll-over baffle blends into a fat tip 
rail.  Relieving this area should also actually increase resistance 
some where it may help you.

Take my input as that of an amature.  I am still learning this craft.

What did you try on the plastic prototype?

Hmmm. Read your #239, but can't quite figure what you mean by a "flip 
up" Any chance of a photo?

These were supposed to be just blanks and I was surprised that they 
blew so well with no working at all. Hence no tip rail and big 
baffle. The baffle just runs out to the tip as you say. They are 
quite hard to blow at the moment, and seem to work best with about a 
1.5 reed (had to sand down a V16 no2).

The plastic one was wrecked when I was experimenting. I started by 
pulling the baffle down to try and warm it up, and succeeded, but the 
altissimo performance disappeared without trace! After losing it, I 
could not get it back. I tried making a more defined tip rail, but 
slipped with the Dremel and wrecked it. I don't want to destroy the 
metal ones the same way! Are there any tips for working on tips?<G> I 
might grind up a piece of gauge plate as a guide edge and try to 
clamp it on somehow.

thanks,
John


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Very interesting!  I copied the picture over to the Photo area too.
> 
> If you have not done so, see my post # 239 in the Messages.  I talk 
> about working the tip rail area for high altissimo.  For lower 
> altissimo, like F3-A3, I think it is more about getting the right 
> resistance a few mms away from the tip.  Long vs medium facings 
> should have little or nothing to do with it.
> 
> To fatten up the sound, I would look at lowering the baffle near 
the 
> tip rail.  Actually, I think you need to establish a defined tip 
> rail.  It nowlooks like the roll-over baffle blends into a fat tip 
> rail.  Relieving this area should also actually increase resistance 
> some where it may help you.
> 
> Take my input as that of an amature.  I am still learning this 
craft.
> 
> What did you try on the plastic prototype?

More info... I've just uploaded a jpg of drawing views (to the photo 
area)showing the current facing/tip geometry.

thatnsk,
John

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Very interesting!  I copied the picture over to the Photo area too.
> 
> If you have not done so, see my post # 239 in the Messages.  I talk 
> about working the tip rail area for high altissimo.  For lower 
> altissimo, like F3-A3, I think it is more about getting the right 
> resistance a few mms away from the tip.  Long vs medium facings 
> should have little or nothing to do with it.
> 
> To fatten up the sound, I would look at lowering the baffle near 
the 
> tip rail.  Actually, I think you need to establish a defined tip 
> rail.  It nowlooks like the roll-over baffle blends into a fat tip 
> rail.  Relieving this area should also actually increase resistance 
> some where it may help you.
> 
> Take my input as that of an amature.  I am still learning this 
craft.
> 
> What did you try on the plastic prototype?

>Read your #239, but can't quite figure what you mean by a "flip up"<

In your drawing, the 100 mm radius goes to the very tip.  So in my 
terms it does flip up some.  To exagerate this, the last 2.4 mm would 
need to have a shorter radius.  If you hold the corners of the tip on 
a flat surface, the amount the center of the tip is away from the 
flat surface is what I'm calling a flip up.  

I think that with high altissimo, only the very tip of the reed is 
vibrating.  Our embouchure closes off most of the facing length.  

But if the tip rail is fat, the tip of the reed does not participate 
much in generating sound.  So I only think this is worth persuing if 
thinner tip rails are used.

> altissimo performance disappeared without trace! After losing it, I 
> could not get it back. I tried making a more defined tip rail, but 
> slipped with the Dremel and wrecked it. I don't want to destroy the 
> metal ones the same way! Are there any tips for working on tips?<G>

Be carefull (duh).  I like a Dremel too, but I can not do much rail 
work with one.  I slip too.  Hand files and sandpaper are best in 
this area.  Slow, but less mistakes.

You might try filling the baffle back in with epoxy on the plastic 
blank and rework it again.

See below..
--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> >Read your #239, but can't quite figure what you mean by a "flip 
up"<
> 
> In your drawing, the 100 mm radius goes to the very tip. 

No. The 2.4mm region is flat, and tangential to the 100 radius.

 So in my 
> terms it does flip up some.  To exagerate this, the last 2.4 mm 
would 
> need to have a shorter radius.  If you hold the corners of the tip 
on 
> a flat surface, the amount the center of the tip is away from the 
> flat surface is what I'm calling a flip up.


> I think that with high altissimo, only the very tip of the reed is 
> vibrating.  Our embouchure closes off most of the facing length.  
> 
> But if the tip rail is fat, the tip of the reed does not 
participate 
> much in generating sound.  So I only think this is worth persuing 
if 
> thinner tip rails are used.
> 
> > altissimo performance disappeared without trace! After losing it, 
I 
> > could not get it back. I tried making a more defined tip rail, 
but 
> > slipped with the Dremel and wrecked it. I don't want to destroy 
the 
> > metal ones the same way! Are there any tips for working on tips?
<G>
> 
> Be carefull (duh).  I like a Dremel too, but I can not do much rail 
> work with one.  I slip too.  Hand files and sandpaper are best in 
> this area.  Slow, but less mistakes.
> 
> You might try filling the baffle back in with epoxy on the plastic 
> blank and rework it again.

Yes, think I will. I'd like to get things right on the plastic one 
(or at least the aluminium one) before doing the stainless. How much 
of a flip up have you found to work best? 

Hi folks,

I have found in the few refacings I have done that it is very important to cut the baffle away at the back of the tip rail. Don't let the end of the baffle just blend in to the tip rail. I found that by defining the inner part of the tip rail and cutting away the baffle material there I got much improved response and much less chirping. Huge improvement. Yes it is touchy work and a slip can ruin the tip rail. I picked up some small curved files which work well. You can also carve yourself some curved wooden sticks of various widths and stick on sandpaper of varying grits with double-sided tape. Here in Japan you can also buy adhesive-backed sandpaper in small rolls. 

Dremels and quick and dangerous, but pretty much necessary on metal pieces. I advise a Dremel holder if you decide to use one--that keeps the drill steady and allows you to use both hands to hold and brace the mpc you are working on. Be very careful with hard rubber and plastic pieces--the Dremel cuts through those materials like butter, but it's hard to beat for cutting the area behind the tip rail cleanly. I do the down and dirty work with the Dremel and clean up afterwards with sandpaper.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:33 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: New soprano piece - need advice!


  >Read your #239, but can't quite figure what you mean by a "flip up"<

  In your drawing, the 100 mm radius goes to the very tip.  So in my 
  terms it does flip up some.  To exagerate this, the last 2.4 mm would 
  need to have a shorter radius.  If you hold the corners of the tip on 
  a flat surface, the amount the center of the tip is away from the 
  flat surface is what I'm calling a flip up.  

  I think that with high altissimo, only the very tip of the reed is 
  vibrating.  Our embouchure closes off most of the facing length.  

  But if the tip rail is fat, the tip of the reed does not participate 
  much in generating sound.  So I only think this is worth persuing if 
  thinner tip rails are used.

  > altissimo performance disappeared without trace! After losing it, I 
  > could not get it back. I tried making a more defined tip rail, but 
  > slipped with the Dremel and wrecked it. I don't want to destroy the 
  > metal ones the same way! Are there any tips for working on tips?<G>

  Be carefull (duh).  I like a Dremel too, but I can not do much rail 
  work with one.  I slip too.  Hand files and sandpaper are best in 
  this area.  Slow, but less mistakes.

  You might try filling the baffle back in with epoxy on the plastic 
  blank and rework it again.




  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

> How much of a flip up have you found to work best?

Sorry, I have not tried to gauge this or find an optimal amount.  I usually
start with a flatened tip rail and gently face a curve into it.  I look at
the light reflecting off it to get it even and smooth.  I like my results
good enough so I stop there.

I've measured some tenors where the end flips up a lot.  The Lakey I
described in message #239 had quite a bit.   If you plot the curve it looks
like a bad tip reading.  Like .010" out of place.  I think these are more
mistakes than design features.  I would need to have several more examples
of the pieces from different production lots to conlude they are features.

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Thanks Toby. I'm thinking of carving up a mask in steel to act as a 
guide. Then just bury the mouthpiece and guide in some plasticine and 
chill it (plasticine then goes quite hard till it warms up again).


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Toby" <kymarto@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I have found in the few refacings I have done that it is very 
important to cut the baffle away at the back of the tip rail. Don't 
let the end of the baffle just blend in to the tip rail. I found that 
by defining the inner part of the tip rail and cutting away the 
baffle material there I got much improved response and much less 
chirping. Huge improvement. Yes it is touchy work and a slip can ruin 
the tip rail. I picked up some small curved files which work well. 
You can also carve yourself some curved wooden sticks of various 
widths and stick on sandpaper of varying grits with double-sided 
tape. Here in Japan you can also buy adhesive-backed sandpaper in 
small rolls. 
> 
>

Hmm. The flip certainly seems to work. I tried it on an old alto 
piece last night, and liked the result so much I did my Vandoren A55 
and Rousseaux JDX6 the same way! (Didn't quite have the bottle to do 
a Lawton!)

Found it made the altissimo C and D clearer, and made the top F (and 
occasionally G!) possible.

I've potted the plastic prototype back up with epoxy putty, leaving a 
small cavity just behind the tip (as Toby suggests). It's a slow 
putty so will probably need 24 hours now. I'll let you know how the 
next round goes.......

John


-- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > How much of a flip up have you found to work best?
> 
> Sorry, I have not tried to gauge this or find an optimal amount.  I 
usually
> start with a flatened tip rail and gently face a curve into it.  I 
look at
> the light reflecting off it to get it even and smooth.  I like my 
results
> good enough so I stop there.

<Dr_John_Ricketts@c...> wrote:
> Hmm. The flip certainly seems to work. I tried it on an old alto 
> piece last night, and liked the result so much I did my Vandoren 
A55 
> and Rousseaux JDX6 the same way! (Didn't quite have the bottle to 
do 
> a Lawton!)
> 

Glad to hear you are having similar results across the pond.  I had a 
similar binge after I did my first one.  I ran to several of my other 
pieces an tried it, but I did not touch my more expensive players.  
Later, I did them too.  A bottle of John Courage beer helped.

The way I have been working the tip rail to flip it up is so subtle 
that it does not take out a lot of material off the tip.  It can 
easily be faced flatter again.  Perhaps you are taking a similar 
amount off.

I probably took off more than I should, but it certainly had the 
effect you mentioned. Do you put the flip all the way across the 
width of the mpc? Or have you tried just doing the middle or the 
sides?

Also, do you take the flip all the way to the inner edge of the tip 
rail, or stop it short?

Thanks again,
John 

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Glad to hear you are having similar results across the pond.  I had 
a 
> similar binge after I did my first one.  I ran to several of my 
other 
> pieces an tried it, but I did not touch my more expensive players.  
> Later, I did them too.  A bottle of John Courage beer helped.
> 
> The way I have been working the tip rail to flip it up is so subtle 
> that it does not take out a lot of material off the tip.  It can 
> easily be faced flatter again.  Perhaps you are taking a similar 
> amount off.

I try for a "flip" that is a gentle curve from the outside corners of the
MP tip rail to the very outside tip.  My "gauge" is my eye and the way
light relects off the tip rail.  I can tell where flat or pointy areas are.
 I can see if the curve breaks to the left or right.   lightly face it
until it all looks like an even curve.

I was inspired to try this after observing the Lakey that had much more
flip to it.  I've seen a few other odd pieces with it.  I did my little bit
and felt it was an improvement for altissimo without adding a noticeable
resistance to the rest of the sax range.  Surely one can go more. 
Eventually a noticeable trade off will be observed between an even better
high altissimo and a free blowing mouthpiece in the normal range.

There is a subtle difference to the tone in the normal playing range of a
sax between using a curved and flat tip rail.  I do not hear it quite
enough to describe it.  Others have described a flat tip rail as a
"rounder" sound.  (So, what does rounder mean to you?)



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OK, I bit the bullet and started work on the stainless steel piece. I 
followed Toby's suggestion, and made a defined tip rail. I did this 
by first marking out with engineers blue, and using dividers to 
scribe a curve parallel to the outside of the tip and 2mm back, and 
then also scribed an arc 6mm back. I carefully dressed this out 
(currently only 0.36mm deep) with the dremel. I also put a slight 
flip on, approximately 1/3 of the leading edge of the tip rail (1/3rd 
of 2mm) at about 15 degrees across the full width. The piece is now 
very playable with a V16 no 2, and has a good tone (still quite 
bright, but acceptably so).

Altissimo G and G# pop out surprisingly easily, and so does the top C 
and C# up to F (but a bit dirty by then). Unfortunately, there is a 
hole in the middle, and A/B are barely playable. (Although I might 
need to try a few more reeds yet).

Q1) Is my flip big enough?
Q2) What can I do to get the A/B to sound more easily?
Q3) Is there any point in making the recess any deeper?

All answers appreciated!

John

PS. See my drawing made the front page!


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I try for a "flip" that is a gentle curve from the outside corners 
of the
> MP tip rail to the very outside tip.  My "gauge" is my eye and the 
way
> light relects off the tip rail.  I can tell where flat or pointy 
areas are.
>  I can see if the curve breaks to the left or right.   lightly face 
it
> until it all looks like an even curve.
> 
> > 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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Please see "photos - soprano - rework#1" for a rendering.

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Dr John Ricketts" 
<Dr_John_Ricketts@c...> wrote:
> OK, I bit the bullet and started work on the stainless steel piece. 
I 
> followed Toby's suggestion, and made a defined tip rail. I did this 
> by first marking out with engineers blue, and using dividers to 
> scribe a curve parallel to the outside of the tip and 2mm back, and 
> then also scribed an arc 6mm back. I carefully dressed this out 
> (currently only 0.36mm deep) with the dremel. I also put a slight 
> flip on, approximately 1/3 of the leading edge of the tip rail 
(1/3rd 
> of 2mm) at about 15 degrees across the full width. The piece is now 
> very playable with a V16 no 2, and has a good tone (still quite 
> bright, but acceptably so).
> 
> Altissimo G and G# pop out surprisingly easily, and so does the top 
C 
> and C# up to F (but a bit dirty by then). Unfortunately, there is a 
> hole in the middle, and A/B are barely playable. (Although I might 
> need to try a few more reeds yet).
> 
> Q1) Is my flip big enough?
> Q2) What can I do to get the A/B to sound more easily?
> Q3) Is there any point in making the recess any deeper?
> 
> All answers appreciated!
> 
> John
> 
> PS. See my drawing made the front page!
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > I try for a "flip" that is a gentle curve from the outside 
corners 
> of the
> > MP tip rail to the very outside tip.  My "gauge" is my eye and 
the 
> way
> > light relects off the tip rail.  I can tell where flat or pointy 
> areas are.
> >  I can see if the curve breaks to the left or right.   lightly 
face 
> it
> > until it all looks like an even curve.
> > 
> > > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
> > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

2 mm is still a pretty thick tip rail.  1 mm would be better and would
still allow for variations in reed end curves.  I usually shoot for .030" .75 mm.  Some hand faced pieces have .5 mm.  The thinner rail will help the
piece to speak and respond better.

As for the "hole" in the altissimo range, I do not have a solution for
this.  The "flip" in the tip rail area does not do much for this range. 
Perhaps making the flip longer will help.  I'm speculating that high
altissimo depends mostly on the very tip of the reed.  Perhaps lower
altissimo notes start to use progressively more reed length.

What kind of soprano are you using (not that it matters much) and what
altissimo fingerings are you using?  Do you have other mouthpieces that
play better in the low altissimo range for you?  

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I guessed 2mm was too much, but would rather sneak up on it from 
the "maximum metal condition" than go too far and have to go looking 
for a metal-putting-on tool!

I'll thin it down carefully next, I think to about 1mm.

As for the soprano, Its not a very good one. I usually play alto on a 
yamaha 875 custom in black finish. The sop is just an "Artemis" of 
the curved variety.

I manage altissimo on the alto with no trouble, and on a variety of 
mpc's. I found the ultimate for sheer altitude was a stainless Lawton 
5*BB with raised baffle but I did not like it over the normal range 
and traded it for an 8*BB. I mostly use a Rousseau JDX6 at the 
moment, as it seems a good all rounder. I use fingerings derived from 
Rousseau's book "Saxophone Higher Tones".

I must admit to not having successfully achieved altissimo on the sop 
before. I have only tried 3 or 4 pieces on it. My current is a 
Vandoren S35 but that won't even get me the F#. I guess I ought to go 
back to the book and check out if the sop fingerings are much 
different to the alto ones that I have been trying on it. 


rgds,
John

I've been using a Musica curved soprano lately with a Rico Royal 
Metalite M5, Winslow Lig and Fibracell Reeds (around a 3).  I think 
it is a Asian-made sax but I can not confirm that.  A Selmer S-80 D 
plays a little better in tune on it.  

I also have a straight Conn that I use a Runyon Custom on or a HR 
Ponzol/Bari/Barone.

For altissimo on sop I'm using:
F#: T f_2_/___side Bb
G:  T f___/4__ side Bb
G#: T f___/4__ side C
A:  T  _23/456 Eb
Bb: T  _23/456 Eb, high D (so-so)
B: I have not zeroed in on a great one
C: T 1__/45_ (Rascher fingerings from here up)

For the High B, try T --3/--- high D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2002 4:25 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: New soprano piece - need advice!


I've been using a Musica curved soprano lately with a Rico Royal
Metalite M5, Winslow Lig and Fibracell Reeds (around a 3).  I think
it is a Asian-made sax but I can not confirm that.  A Selmer S-80 D
plays a little better in tune on it.

I also have a straight Conn that I use a Runyon Custom on or a HR
Ponzol/Bari/Barone.

For altissimo on sop I'm using:
F#: T f_2_/___side Bb
G:  T f___/4__ side Bb
G#: T f___/4__ side C
A:  T  _23/456 Eb
Bb: T  _23/456 Eb, high D (so-so)
B: I have not zeroed in on a great one
C: T 1__/45_ (Rascher fingerings from here up)








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Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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Thanks, I'll try these. Although when I thinned down the tip rail, 
made the recess deeper and tried some other reeds the mid-altissimo 
seems much better. Will definitely have a go at your A fingering 
though...

I have a "Musica-Stehr" alto which is stamped "made in Austria". I 
guess Musica and Stehr must have tied the knot at some time. It plays 
pretty well, but has a clunky action.

Now, dare I take that tip rail any thinner.........

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I've been using a Musica curved soprano lately with a Rico Royal 
> Metalite M5, Winslow Lig and Fibracell Reeds (around a 3).  I think 
> it is a Asian-made sax but I can not confirm that.  A Selmer S-80 D 
> plays a little better in tune on it.  
> 
> I also have a straight Conn that I use a Runyon Custom on or a HR 
> Ponzol/Bari/Barone.
> 
> For altissimo on sop I'm using:
> F#: T f_2_/___side Bb
> G:  T f___/4__ side Bb
> G#: T f___/4__ side C
> A:  T  _23/456 Eb
> Bb: T  _23/456 Eb, high D (so-so)
> B: I have not zeroed in on a great one
> C: T 1__/45_ (Rascher fingerings from here up)

I've heard tha straight Musica sopranos are stamped "Made in Germany".  My
curvy is not marked.  Someone suggested it coul be an Amati but it does not
look like any of their's.  It looks Tiawan-made to me.  I had to voice it a
little and lighten the action.  Not bad for $600 US.  

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Soprano altissimo:

Fork E as on alto/tenor:  Oct key, Front F key, LH2, LH3

Fork F as on alto/tenor:  Oct key, Front F key, LH2

F#, Oct key, Front F key, LH2, plus RH1
or
Oct key, Front F key, LH2, plus side Bb
or
Oct key, Front F key, LH2, plus high F# key
or
Oct key, LH1, LH2, high F# key
or
Oct key, LH1, LH3, RH1

High G:  Oct key, Front F key, RH1, High F#
or
Oct key, Front F key, RH1, side Bb
or
Oct key, LH1, LH3, RH1, RH3
or
Oct key, LH1, LH3, RH1, side Bb

High G#:  Oct key, LH1, LH3, RH1, RH3, plus side C key
or
Oct key, LH1, LH3, RH1, plus side C key

High A:  Oct key, LH2, LH3, plus, on most sopranos, side C key.

These fingerings do NOT work on vintage sopranos such as old Bueschers
and Conns.  These older sopranos' keys are linked differently.

Paul


Dr John Ricketts wrote:

>  Thanks, I'll try these. Although when I thinned down the tip rail,
> made the recess deeper and tried some other reeds the mid-altissimo
> seems much better. Will definitely have a go at your A fingering
> though...
>
> I have a "Musica-Stehr" alto which is stamped "made in Austria". I
> guess Musica and Stehr must have tied the knot at some time. It plays
> pretty well, but has a clunky action.
>
> Now, dare I take that tip rail any thinner.........
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > I've been using a Musica curved soprano lately with a Rico Royal
> > Metalite M5, Winslow Lig and Fibracell Reeds (around a 3).  I think
> > it is a Asian-made sax but I can not confirm that.  A Selmer S-80 D
> > plays a little better in tune on it.
> >
> > I also have a straight Conn that I use a Runyon Custom on or a HR
> > Ponzol/Bari/Barone.
> >
> > For altissimo on sop I'm using:
> > F#: T f_2_/___side Bb
> > G:  T f___/4__ side Bb
> > G#: T f___/4__ side C
> > A:  T  _23/456 Eb
> > Bb: T  _23/456 Eb, high D (so-so)
> > B: I have not zeroed in on a great one
> > C: T 1__/45_ (Rascher fingerings from here up)
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
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--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

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  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

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and view photos.

For alto High B I use Oct key, LH3, high Eb key only.  The D key is
flat.  This depends on your alto.  This fingering works on soprano, too.

Use whichever Eb or D palm gives the best intonation.

For Bb, Oct key, LH2, LH3, RH1  or
Oct key, LH3, RH1, RH2

Try these with and without the side C key.

Paul

Bootman wrote:

>  For the High B, try T --3/--- high D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Bradbury [mailto:kwbradbury@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2002 4:25 AM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: New soprano piece - need advice!
>
>
> I've been using a Musica curved soprano lately with a Rico Royal
> Metalite M5, Winslow Lig and Fibracell Reeds (around a 3).  I think
> it is a Asian-made sax but I can not confirm that.  A Selmer S-80 D
> plays a little better in tune on it.
>
> I also have a straight Conn that I use a Runyon Custom on or a HR
> Ponzol/Bari/Barone.
>
> For altissimo on sop I'm using:
> F#: T f_2_/___side Bb
> G:  T f___/4__ side Bb
> G#: T f___/4__ side C
> A:  T  _23/456 Eb
> Bb: T  _23/456 Eb, high D (so-so)
> B: I have not zeroed in on a great one
> C: T 1__/45_ (Rascher fingerings from here up)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I find that adding side C key helps on all the altissimo A fingerings I
have used on alto and soprano.

Paul

Dr John Ricketts wrote:

>  OK, I bit the bullet and started work on the stainless steel piece. I
>
> followed Toby's suggestion, and made a defined tip rail. I did this
> by first marking out with engineers blue, and using dividers to
> scribe a curve parallel to the outside of the tip and 2mm back, and
> then also scribed an arc 6mm back. I carefully dressed this out
> (currently only 0.36mm deep) with the dremel. I also put a slight
> flip on, approximately 1/3 of the leading edge of the tip rail (1/3rd
> of 2mm) at about 15 degrees across the full width. The piece is now
> very playable with a V16 no 2, and has a good tone (still quite
> bright, but acceptably so).
>
> Altissimo G and G# pop out surprisingly easily, and so does the top C
> and C# up to F (but a bit dirty by then). Unfortunately, there is a
> hole in the middle, and A/B are barely playable. (Although I might
> need to try a few more reeds yet).
>
> Q1) Is my flip big enough?
> Q2) What can I do to get the A/B to sound more easily?
> Q3) Is there any point in making the recess any deeper?
>
> All answers appreciated!
>
> John
>
> PS. See my drawing made the front page!
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > I try for a "flip" that is a gentle curve from the outside corners
> of the
> > MP tip rail to the very outside tip.  My "gauge" is my eye and the
> way
> > light relects off the tip rail.  I can tell where flat or pointy
> areas are.
> >  I can see if the curve breaks to the left or right.   lightly face
> it
> > until it all looks like an even curve.
> >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
> > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

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  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

You can't make the facing too long, and then expect good altissimo.
Soprano mouthpieces seem to work well with facing lengths in the 17mm
range.

Altos in the 20 mm range.

Tenors 22-24mm

Bari 24-28 mm range.

Dr John Ricketts wrote:

>  I probably took off more than I should, but it certainly had the
> effect you mentioned. Do you put the flip all the way across the
> width of the mpc? Or have you tried just doing the middle or the
> sides?
>
> Also, do you take the flip all the way to the inner edge of the tip
> rail, or stop it short?
>
> Thanks again,
> John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > Glad to hear you are having similar results across the pond.  I had
> a
> > similar binge after I did my first one.  I ran to several of my
> other
> > pieces an tried it, but I did not touch my more expensive players.
> > Later, I did them too.  A bottle of John Courage beer helped.
> >
> > The way I have been working the tip rail to flip it up is so subtle
> > that it does not take out a lot of material off the tip.  It can
> > easily be faced flatter again.  Perhaps you are taking a similar
> > amount off.
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I like bending rules and experimenting. The facing was lifted from 
the Vandoren S35 (which admittedly, won't do altissimo at all).  
After narrowing down the tip to improve response, and increasing the 
depth of the recess before the baffle (see picture in "photos - 
soprano sax", the piece now plays best on a vandoren V16 2.5. 
Altissimo works a treat over the full range now as well (Mojo, thanks 
for the A fingering - works great - have you got a fingering for the 
A an octave up ;-). The piece also plays more in tune than any of my 
others.

Plan for the next run is to incorporate the rework into the CAD 
model, and also to shorten the window down. I have over egged it in 
this respect, and the reed is not really supported as well as I would 
like it to be.

Also need to start rework on the aluminium piece. Want to see how 
good I can keep the altissimo performance whilst getting the tone 
much darker.

rgds,
John


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Paul Coats <tenorman@t...> wrote:
> You can't make the facing too long, and then expect good altissimo.
> Soprano mouthpieces seem to work well with facing lengths in the 
17mm
> range.
> 
> Altos in the 20 mm range.
> 
> Tenors 22-24mm
> 
> Bari 24-28 mm range.
> 
> Dr John Ricketts wrote:
> 
> >  I probably took off more than I should, but it certainly had the
> > effect you mentioned. Do you put the flip all the way across the
> > width of the mpc? Or have you tried just doing the middle or the
> > sides?
> >
> > Also, do you take the flip all the way to the inner edge of the 
tip
> > rail, or stop it short?
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > John
> >
>

> have you got a fingering for the A an octave up ;-). 

These notes are difficult to use in a musical setting and are just 
plain tough to get on sop with any fingering.  Still, it is fun to 
try.

I use the Rasher fingering for high G:
T -2-/45- (Eb opt)

Then I add palm keys to (try to) go higher.  Try adding palm D and Eb 
to see if you can eek out an A4.

Thanks. It was a <G> really, but I'll try them out anyway! BTW, just 
fine tweaking my SS piece. Had to get some of the tiny Dremel 
grinding bits. SS seems to really eat them. It plays fine now, but 
the chamber work needs smoothing out (just cosmetic, it looks bad). 
Need to figure out how best to machine in the geometry that I've hand 
ground now. There is a limit to how small a cutter people are 
prepared to go down to on stainless steel!

rgds,
John

PS. Must get started on the Al dark one. Yesterday was blown on an 
all day rehearsal (with extended refreshment interlude ;-)



--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > have you got a fingering for the A an octave up ;-). 
> 
> These notes are difficult to use in a musical setting and are just 
> plain tough to get on sop with any fingering.  Still, it is fun to 
> try.
> 
> I use the Rasher fingering for high G:
> T -2-/45- (Eb opt)
> 
> Then I add palm keys to (try to) go higher.  Try adding palm D and 
Eb 
> to see if you can eek out an A4.

Cool. Thanks for that. I'll remember that when I'm experimenting on 
my mpc the next time.
:-)

DB


--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., Paul Coats <tenorman@t...> wrote:
> Tenors 22-24mm