Hi,

Before I start, sorry for the long email, and perhaps slightly dumb 
questions (I've only been a member of the group for about 10 minutes).

I was just wondering what mouthpiece you guys would recommend for me. 
I'll give you as much relevant (or perhaps irrelevant) information as 
I can think of, and then ask my questions.

I currently own an old, cheap Weltklang Tenor Sax, and I'm currently 
using a metal Wolfe Tayne 8* (103 thou tip gap, virtually no baffle, 
except just a little bit of electrical insulation tape that I've put 
in there to brighten up my tone just a little bit, squared-off 
chamber, but all contours going into the bore are smooth until the 
transition to the bore it's self - just in case you haven't seen one 
before), with Rico/Rico Royal 3 reeds. I have quite a mellow sound 
(probably just a little bit too mellow some times, hence the tape 
building up the baffle by up to about 20-30 thou, the maximum being 
about half way along the baffle). Others tend to describe my sound 
as "Getzy" or "Desmondy" (depending a little bit on how I play at the 
time, and who the listener is). I'm currently not likely to change my 
horn (despite what some people try to tell me about the Weltklangs, 
I've had a good run from it, and the intonation seems to be close 
enough for what I want at the moment - but I may go to a Selmer MKVI 
or VII, Conn "Chu Berry" or "Naked Lady", or a Keilwerth SX90R some 
time in the distant future). I'm having a few troubles getting the 
bell-notes from C down (but this is partially due to a few leaks in 
the horn that I haven't fully remedied yet - I have to borrow a leak 
light from a friend), and both A's and G#'s are a bit "fluffy". 
Despite this, my palm-key notes have a reasonably fat sound, and I 
don't want to change them all that much (unless they were to become 
fatter, that is). I also don't like to play particularly loudly, and 
I take a relatively small bite of the mouthpiece (around 1/3" - but 
that might be a subconscious attempt to eliminate "edge" from the 
tone of the mouthpiece), roll the bottom lip over the teeth more than 
most, have a firm jaw pressure (and firm bottom lip), using the 
conventional "tooth on the top of the mouthpiece" embouchure. I like 
the Stan Getz tone from the days where he was using a hard rubber 
Otto Link "Florida" 5* (in the "Bossa" period). I also like the Paul 
Desmond tone from his Gregory "A" model 4A 18M (But I like the "Getz" 
sound (perhaps I should have just said "The Sound"... Pun intended) 
better). I'm not sure whether I like rubber mouthpieces or not (the 
first rubber one I've tried should be available to me some time on 
Monday), because I like the beak to be small (I think this comes from 
my days of being an Alto player - and it could also be from limiting 
the edge of my current mouthpiece) - the Wolfe Tayne is a good 
example of the feel that I like. I don't like a buzzy/edgy sound 
(actually, I hate buzzy sounds, which should tell you how dark my 
natural sound is with my current set-up, when I risk getting a more 
buzzy/edgy sound by increasing the baffle very slightly), so I want 
to go to harder reeds and a smaller tip gap (I'm at my limit for reed 
size with my current mouthpiece).

What mouthpiece would you recommend in order to get the sound I'm 
trying to get?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Danny Barrett

PS: Although I probably wouldn't "win a special award for quietness" 
like Paul Desmond, I'm also not a particularly loud player, and I 
like it that way - I just thought that might help with your 
recommendations. Thanks again.

>I'm having a few troubles getting the 
> bell-notes from C down (but this is partially due to a few leaks in 
> the horn that I haven't fully remedied yet - I have to borrow a 
leak 
> light from a friend), 

I would highly recommend you get the leaks professionally repaired at 
least once to give you a baseline of what the sax is capable of.  
After that, if you want to try pad work to keep it there, go for it.

> I take a relatively small bite of the mouthpiece (around 1/3" - but 
> that might be a subconscious attempt to eliminate "edge" from the 
> tone of the mouthpiece), roll the bottom lip over the teeth more 
than 
> most, have a firm jaw pressure (and firm bottom lip), using the 
> conventional "tooth on the top of the mouthpiece" embouchure

This does sound like a "sound darkening" embouchure (but that's OK).  
You may be able to get rid of the electrical tape and just play 
brighter on the MP.

>I don't like a buzzy/edgy sound 
> (actually, I hate buzzy sounds, which should tell you how dark my 
> natural sound is with my current set-up, when I risk getting a more 
> buzzy/edgy sound by increasing the baffle very slightly), so I want 
> to go to harder reeds and a smaller tip gap (I'm at my limit for 
reed 
> size with my current mouthpiece).

You can probably get what you are looking for with metal or rubber.  
But there may be a better selection of mellow HR MPs out there.  Be 
aware too that the buzz you may hear may not be heard by the 
listeners.

> 
> What mouthpiece would you recommend in order to get the sound I'm 
> trying to get?
> 

I think your described embouchure is a huge factor in this match up.  
Classical and vintage HR MPs may play too dark for you unless you 
compensate with your embouchure.  I think players get set in their 
ways in 2 areas: sound concept and embouchure.  Their sound concept 
and physique will guide them to get their basic sound out of most 
mouthpieces.  Their embouchure preferance will hold them back some 
when trying a radically different mouthpiece.  Once you get "your 
sound" on a new mouthpiece, you may not like how much effort it takes 
to force that MP to do what you want.

If you basically like your current MP.  Try similar ones.  Either 
more by the same brand (there is manufacturing variation), or similar 
designs from other makers.  If you think you are working too hard to 
mellow it out, try some "classical" or conservative designs.  A 
Selmer, Vandoren, Morgan, Meyer, Runyon SR, etc.  

Reply within...

--- In MouthpieceWork@y..., "kwbradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> I would highly recommend you get the leaks professionally repaired 
at 
> least once to give you a baseline of what the sax is capable of.  
> After that, if you want to try pad work to keep it there, go for it.

I would have to agree there, but when a friend of mine called around 
a few places to see about getting his horn's leaks fixed, and said 
that he has access to a leak light, so the job has to be done 
properly, they *all* said that they weren't interested in doing the 
job (this is in Australia, so please don't think that your USA guys 
are the ones I'm talking about - but there would be plenty over there 
that would react the same way). But in any case, I've fixed my leaks 
as much as I can without replacing pads - I used the light at the 
friends place, and that's how I found out about the leaks I have. I'm 
thinking about getting the horn completely re-padded 
(professionally), and then checking it with the leak light (and 
adjusting where required).

> This does sound like a "sound darkening" embouchure (but that's 
OK).  
> You may be able to get rid of the electrical tape and just play 
> brighter on the MP.

Since I sent the message, I got rid of my make-shift baffle, and the 
sound became nicer. I've realised that increasing baffle to increase 
the brightness doesn't always increase fatness (but it's a bit 
academic now - see further on)...

> You can probably get what you are looking for with metal or 
rubber.  
> But there may be a better selection of mellow HR MPs out there.  Be 
> aware too that the buzz you may hear may not be heard by the 
> listeners.

Thanks for the advice on the buzz. I've got a new mouthpiece (new to 
me, but quite old, but I think I'm possibly the only one to have ever 
used it - not a bite mark on it - more about it further down)...

> I think your described embouchure is a huge factor in this match 
up.  

With the "new" mouthpiece (and a little bit of experimentation on the 
old one) I found this to be *very* true. I think I have been taking a 
very slight bite (subconceously - sp???) to counteract the natural 
harshness of the metal mouthpiece I've been using. I think that the 
embouchure I was using dampens out the higher frequencies, and in so 
doing, reduces the harshness, but makes the sound *very* mellow (for 
the particular mouthpiece, that is).

> Classical and vintage HR MPs may play too dark for you unless you 
> compensate with your embouchure.

Done just that. I had to just to be able to play the new mouthpiece 
(Buescher True-Lay 60-937M HR mouthpiece).

> I think players get set in their 
> ways in 2 areas: sound concept and embouchure.

I think I know what you mean. I've had to change my embouchure to get 
to the sound that I want - but I still have to "unlearn" the old 
sound and embouchure - but if I do, I'll "Getz" "the sound" (puns 
intended) that I want (I know, because I got it on the new mpc - and 
I was in total musical extacy, and no I don't do drugs - just before 
anyone asks).
;-)

> Their sound concept 
> and physique will guide them to get their basic sound out of most 
> mouthpieces.  Their embouchure preferance will hold them back some 
> when trying a radically different mouthpiece.

I've noticed this with my own recent experience. It's frustrating, 
but it still as to be worked through.

> Once you get "your 
> sound" on a new mouthpiece, you may not like how much effort it 
takes 
> to force that MP to do what you want.

I know what you're saying there. However, since getting the HR mpc, 
I've found just how much my tone was from the tone that I want... 
Quite different. So this means that I'm now going through the process 
of "unlearning" the old way, and learning the new way. It's not easy, 
but I can hear the rewards, and it's worth it!

> If you basically like your current MP.  Try similar ones.  Either 
> more by the same brand (there is manufacturing variation), or 
similar 
> designs from other makers.  If you think you are working too hard 
to 
> mellow it out, try some "classical" or conservative designs.  A 
> Selmer, Vandoren, Morgan, Meyer, Runyon SR, etc.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I know that what I'm getting used to 
now is a whole different ball-game to what I was using before, so I'm 
expecting completely different results, and with a very 
different "player" aspect to the sound production. For instance, I'm 
now taking around 3/4" of bite, instead of 1/3". This is a *big* 
difference for anyone, but that's what I have to do to get the tone I 
want, so that's what I'm doing. But now to the results...

The top register (middle D upward to top F - not including any 
altissimo) is now indistinguishable from Getz's tone when I've got 
the embouchure right. I can get the whole horn all the way down to 
bottom Bb without much trouble when I've got the embouchure right 
(actually, without any trouble - I've just got to steadily breathe to 
get it - but I won't get it if I "blow" into the mpc - even with the 
same embouchure), and it's the exact tone I've been searching for - 
all over the horn - but (once again) only when I get the embouchure 
right. Needless to say, I agree totally with what you were saying 
about the human aspect to the tone production. It has been a total 
paradigm shift for me to go to the HR mouthpiece, with a very 
different embouchure. However, I hope that the fact that the horn 
virtually won't make a sound if I stick with the old way of doing 
things will keep me from slipping back out of the tone that I want - 
and I'm getting more used to things how they are now, so I think it's 
going to be a success.

Thanks, and regards,

Danny