I guess I'm still not real good at this.  Well, I eventually get good 
results, but it takes a lot of time.

I was working on a blue Runyon Custom alto MP over the weekend.  It 
had a nicked up side rail that I wanted to clean up by facing down 
the table.  I was using 220 and 400 grit paper to cut down the 
table.  As I sanded the piece, the dust smelled like Plexiglass.  (I 
recall the smell from cutting some sheets on my table saw using a 
fine-toothed plywood blade.)  The blue Runyon material is translucent 
and could be related to the same material as in Plexiglass.

Anyhow, I was sanding the table with sandpaper on a glass plate.  I 
was pulling the piece flat, away from the tip.  But the tip opening 
was not closing up!  I eventually figured out that even with one 
pass, the material being sandedoff off the table was building up so 
that the trailing surface of the table was being sanded as much as 
the leading surface.  When I turned the piece around to draw it flat 
with the tip leading, I made progress on closing down the tip.  Now I 
had a high spot on the table.  A few alternating diagonal strokes 
cleared that up.

I had not noticed this problem before but I think I may have been 
having this for a while.  It was just worse due to the material of 
this mouthpiece.

The next piece I do that I need to close up, I'll start by sanding 
the table tip first.  If I need to open it up, I'll start by sanding 
the heal of the table first.

Keith:  Yes, the material is Acrylic, which Plexiglass, but with
synthetic rubber added for flexibility.  What Mr. Runyon calls an
alloy.  It is engineered to vibrate like hard rubber.

What you describe is just what I have run into before.  And you solved
the problem the same way I did.

I use 400 for table work, if I really have to remove a lot of material.
But usually I use no coarser than 600 for most refacing, and 800 and
1000 for a polish.  But that is more for appearance, trying to produce a
professional looking job.  The work with just 600 plays no differently
than a high polish.

I have sometimes used 320 for table work, but as I get closer to desired
level, I go to 400, then 600.

What is most important is to keep wiping the mouthpiece clean, and going
to fresh areas on the sandpaper as it loads up.  Also, check the
BACKSIDE of the paper for grit or those darned price stickers.  The
glass, both sides of the paper, and mouthpiece must be free of grit.  A
chunk of grit under or on the paper can mar or ruin otherwise good work.

Clean, clean, clean.

Paul


kwbradbury wrote:

>  I guess I'm still not real good at this.  Well, I eventually get good
>
> results, but it takes a lot of time.
>
> I was working on a blue Runyon Custom alto MP over the weekend.  It
> had a nicked up side rail that I wanted to clean up by facing down
> the table.  I was using 220 and 400 grit paper to cut down the
> table.  As I sanded the piece, the dust smelled like Plexiglass.  (I
> recall the smell from cutting some sheets on my table saw using a
> fine-toothed plywood blade.)  The blue Runyon material is translucent
> and could be related to the same material as in Plexiglass.
>
> Anyhow, I was sanding the table with sandpaper on a glass plate.  I
> was pulling the piece flat, away from the tip.  But the tip opening
> was not closing up!  I eventually figured out that even with one
> pass, the material being sandedoff off the table was building up so
> that the trailing surface of the table was being sanded as much as
> the leading surface.  When I turned the piece around to draw it flat
> with the tip leading, I made progress on closing down the tip.  Now I
> had a high spot on the table.  A few alternating diagonal strokes
> cleared that up.
>
> I had not noticed this problem before but I think I may have been
> having this for a while.  It was just worse due to the material of
> this mouthpiece.
>
> The next piece I do that I need to close up, I'll start by sanding
> the table tip first.  If I need to open it up, I'll start by sanding
> the heal of the table first.
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I think 220 is a bit too coarse too.  I was getting frustrated by the 
lack of progress so I broke it out.  It probably should only be used 
on stainless steel, if at all.  

I was out of 320.  I think Jon Van Wie does most of his work with 320 
and steel wool.  I've used mostly 400 and 600 and some crocus cloth 
(1200?).

I have put in a few baffles in hard rubber mouthpieces
using various substances ranging from flexible rubber
gasket material to various epoxies. When using epoxy I
cast an impression of the chamber with a malleable wax
substance, then I make a negative cast of the wax
impression in plaster of paris.

After the plaster of Paris has set, I remove the wax
from the paraffin cast. Then I break the plaster of
paris mould to free the epoxy baffle.

Then the work begins, which means a LOT of filing to
get the baffle to the proper height and to make it
level.

My Question: Is there an easier way of doing this,
perhaps some other material I can use which will allow
me to put the baffle material directly into the
chamber without having to worry about misapplied
epoxy, etc.? I am presently using JB Weld, and the
baffles work quite well but they take an awfully long
time to make them.
--- kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> I think 220 is a bit too coarse too.  I was getting
> frustrated by the 
> lack of progress so I broke it out.  It probably
> should only be used 
> on stainless steel, if at all.  
> 
> I was out of 320.  I think Jon Van Wie does most of
> his work with 320 
> and steel wool.  I've used mostly 400 and 600 and
> some crocus cloth 
> (1200?).
> 
> 


==
 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

There are a couple of things you might try--I use them to build shakuhachi bores. One is called "wood bond epoxy" over here in Japan. It is essentially a wood putty but composed of two part epoxy resins with (must be) some filler material. When mixed together it is about the consistency of normal wood putty, and sets quite hard within 12 hours or so. At that point it is waterproof and quite easy to sand. It is not dense enough to take a super-high gloss but it does get quite smooth. Perhaps better because it is a bit denser is plain ol' epoxy putty. It is more expensive by weight and a bit thicker than the wood bond stuff--it has the consistency of modelling clay. I have used it quite successfully to build up the baffle of a couple of mpcs and even to extend the collar of one alto mpc that I wanted to use with a C Mel (although for that it needed reinforcement as it is not too strong and can crackunder pressure). That's what I would recommend, since it can be quite easily shaped when first mixed but will retain the shape, and can be sanded and shaped afterward with simple tools.

Finally some of the shakuhachi guys use body putty for cars. I've never tried it but it is quite dense and should work well.

Hope that helps,

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thaddeus Mugwump 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:09 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Baffles


  I have put in a few baffles in hard rubber mouthpieces
  using various substances ranging from flexible rubber
  gasket material to various epoxies. When using epoxy I
  cast an impression of the chamber with a malleable wax
  substance, then I make a negative cast of the wax
  impression in plaster of paris.

  After the plaster of Paris has set, I remove the wax
  from the paraffin cast. Then I break the plaster of
  paris mould to free the epoxy baffle.

  Then the work begins, which means a LOT of filing to
  get the baffle to the proper height and to make it
  level.

  My Question: Is there an easier way of doing this,
  perhaps some other material I can use which will allow
  me to put the baffle material directly into the
  chamber without having to worry about misapplied
  epoxy, etc.? I am presently using JB Weld, and the
  baffles work quite well but they take an awfully long
  time to make them.
  --- kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
  > I think 220 is a bit too coarse too.  I was getting
  > frustrated by the 
  > lack of progress so I broke it out.  It probably
  > should only be used 
  > on stainless steel, if at all.  
  > 
  > I was out of 320.  I think Jon Van Wie does most of
  > his work with 320 
  > and steel wool.  I've used mostly 400 and 600 and
  > some crocus cloth 
  > (1200?).
  > 
  > 


  ==



  __________________________________________________
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
  http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

  To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

I have not tried "break casting" removable baffles baffles.  Sounds 
like you can get good results, but its a lot of work. 

I started by hand filing wedges out of scrap plastic (Phenolic).  
This is a lot of work to get a good fit. On SOTW its been suggested 
to try tile separator wedges.  But I have not found any yet.

I then moved on to casting an oversized baffle in the mouthpiece 
after first lining it with clear plastic wrap.  I experimented with 
JB Weld, 5-min Devcon, and Epoxybond putty.  The JB weld was too 
soupy for me.  Maybe the trick is to wait until it sets up to a putty 
consistency.  I just did not work out the needed waiting time.  The 5-
min clear Devcon was nice and fast, but full of bubbles and soupy 
too.  I liked the gray Epoxybond plumber's putty the most.  After 20-
40 minutes or so, I could shape it easier with a wet tool.  I also 
made several by folding the plastic wrap over and trying to shape the 
putty between the 2 layers.   If the plastic wrap wrinkled the 
baffle, I filled in the cracks later with JB Weld.  I finished the 
baffle by using a high speed rotary tool (like a Dremel) with a ¾" 
dia x 1/8" thick grinding wheel on it.  Dust was all over me, but I 
made a bunch of baffles this way. Hand filing is too slow.

Several months ago, I worked out a faster method.  I first make a 
temporary baffle out of poster hanging putty.  I play test/reshape it 
then I remove it and roll it up.  Based on its size, I take the same 
amount of Oatey fast set plumber's putty.   This is a white stick 
with a gray core (or the other way around) sold at my local Home 
Depot.  I hear pool repair putty is similar.  Before I mix the putty, 
I coat the inside of the mouthpiece with petroleum jelly.  I then 
cast the baffle in place very quickly using a couple of small spoon 
and trowel-like tools.  It sets in 5 minutes and I pop it out in 
about 20 minutes.  If there is not much of a taper ("draft") to the 
chamber, they can be tough to pop out.  Last, I usually grind a 
little off to even it up, but this is a lot less grinding than I use 
to do.  It takes some practice but it is very gratifying to make one 
of these quickly with less work!  I often include these as a bonus to 
a new refacing client.

Hey!

I've read about the tile separator wedges but I
haven't located any at my Home Depot or any other such
store. Is the plumber's putty water soluble after
setting? 

The casting is just too long a process, and with the
JB Weld, it just takes too much time. I've begun
experimenting with meltable plastic glue. It's easier
and faster, by it just doesn't look at all
professional. It looks exactly like what it is: hot
glue.

I'm going to look for the other epoxies you mentioned.


And yes, the Dremel is the tool for this sort of work.

By the way, I think that this is a GREAT group you've
started. 
--- kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> I have not tried "break casting" removable baffles
> baffles.  Sounds 
> like you can get good results, but its a lot of
> work. 
> 
> I started by hand filing wedges out of scrap plastic
> (Phenolic).  
> This is a lot of work to get a good fit. On SOTW its
> been suggested 
> to try tile separator wedges.  But I have not found
> any yet.
> 
> I then moved on to casting an oversized baffle in
> the mouthpiece 
> after first lining it with clear plastic wrap.  I
> experimented with 
> JB Weld, 5-min Devcon, and Epoxybond putty.  The JB
> weld was too 
> soupy for me.  Maybe the trick is to wait until it
> sets up to a putty 
> consistency.  I just did not work out the needed
> waiting time.  The 5-
> min clear Devcon was nice and fast, but full of
> bubbles and soupy 
> too.  I liked the gray Epoxybond plumber's putty the
> most.  After 20-
> 40 minutes or so, I could shape it easier with a wet
> tool.  I also 
> made several by folding the plastic wrap over and
> trying to shape the 
> putty between the 2 layers.   If the plastic wrap
> wrinkled the 
> baffle, I filled in the cracks later with JB Weld. 
> I finished the 
> baffle by using a high speed rotary tool (like a
> Dremel) with a �" 
> dia x 1/8" thick grinding wheel on it.  Dust was all
> over me, but I 
> made a bunch of baffles this way. Hand filing is too
> slow.
> 
> Several months ago, I worked out a faster method.  I
> first make a 
> temporary baffle out of poster hanging putty.  I
> play test/reshape it 
> then I remove it and roll it up.  Based on its size,
> I take the same 
> amount of Oatey fast set plumber's putty.   This is
> a white stick 
> with a gray core (or the other way around) sold at
> my local Home 
> Depot.  I hear pool repair putty is similar.  Before
> I mix the putty, 
> I coat the inside of the mouthpiece with petroleum
> jelly.  I then 
> cast the baffle in place very quickly using a couple
> of small spoon 
> and trowel-like tools.  It sets in 5 minutes and I
> pop it out in 
> about 20 minutes.  If there is not much of a taper
> ("draft") to the 
> chamber, they can be tough to pop out.  Last, I
> usually grind a 
> little off to even it up, but this is a lot less
> grinding than I use 
> to do.  It takes some practice but it is very
> gratifying to make one 
> of these quickly with less work!  I often include
> these as a bonus to 
> a new refacing client.
> 
> 
> 


=====

 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Toby,

I've considered wood filler putty, but what I've seen
and used is porous and needs no mixing. I don't think
it's the same thing you're talking about.

I've thought of auto body filler. i think that the
huge quantities it comes in is a bit intimidating.

I've considered Environtex which is basically a clear
acrylic two-part finishing resin. That too requires
mixing and can be pretty soupy stuff too.

I've had rollover baffles installed in mouthpieces by
a guy in Utah, but it looked like he used hard rubber.
It was as hard as the mouthpiece  itself and appeared
to have been extruded right into the mouthpiece and
then lightly filed at the top to smooth it out.

Thanks for the reply. Now I've got yet another avenue
to check out.

Mike
--- Toby <kymarto@...> wrote:
> There are a couple of things you might try--I use
> them to build shakuhachi bores. One is called "wood
> bond epoxy" over here in Japan. It is essentially a
> wood putty but composed of two part epoxy resins
> with (must be) some filler material. When mixed
> together it is about the consistency of normal wood
> putty, and sets quite hard within 12 hours or so. At
> that point it is waterproof and quite easy to sand.
> It is not dense enough to take a super-high gloss
> but it does get quite smooth. Perhaps better because
> it is a bit denser is plain ol' epoxy putty. It is
> more expensive by weight and a bit thicker than the
> wood bond stuff--it has the consistency of modelling
> clay. I have used it quite successfully to build up
> the baffle of a couple of mpcs and even to extend
> the collar of one alto mpc that I wanted to use with
> a C Mel (although for that it needed reinforcement
> as it is not too strong and can crackunder
> pressure). That's what I would recommend, since it
> can be quite easily shaped when first mixed but will
> retain the shape, and can be sanded and shaped
> afterward with simple tools.
> 
> Finally some of the shakuhachi guys use body putty
> for cars. I've never tried it but it is quite dense
> and should work well.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Toby
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Thaddeus Mugwump 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:09 AM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Baffles
> 
> 
>   I have put in a few baffles in hard rubber
> mouthpieces
>   using various substances ranging from flexible
> rubber
>   gasket material to various epoxies. When using
> epoxy I
>   cast an impression of the chamber with a malleable
> wax
>   substance, then I make a negative cast of the wax
>   impression in plaster of paris.
> 
>   After the plaster of Paris has set, I remove the
> wax
>   from the paraffin cast. Then I break the plaster
> of
>   paris mould to free the epoxy baffle.
> 
>   Then the work begins, which means a LOT of filing
> to
>   get the baffle to the proper height and to make it
>   level.
> 
>   My Question: Is there an easier way of doing this,
>   perhaps some other material I can use which will
> allow
>   me to put the baffle material directly into the
>   chamber without having to worry about misapplied
>   epoxy, etc.? I am presently using JB Weld, and the
>   baffles work quite well but they take an awfully
> long
>   time to make them.
>   --- kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>   > I think 220 is a bit too coarse too.  I was
> getting
>   > frustrated by the 
>   > lack of progress so I broke it out.  It probably
>   > should only be used 
>   > on stainless steel, if at all.  
>   > 
>   > I was out of 320.  I think Jon Van Wie does most
> of
>   > his work with 320 
>   > and steel wool.  I've used mostly 400 and 600
> and
>   > some crocus cloth 
>   > (1200?).
>   > 
>   > 
> 
> 
>   ==> 
> 
> 
> 
>   __________________________________________________
>   Do You Yahoo!?
>   Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>   http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> 
>   Visit the site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to
> Mouthpiece Work.
> 
>   To see and modify your groups, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service. 
> 
> 


==
 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

>>> Is the plumber's putty water soluble after setting? 

No, I've never seen an epoxy that is water soluble.  The fast set  
stuff will even set under water.  Its a chemical set that generates 
its own heat while setting.

To do this method, go to www.micromark.com and order a free catalog.
The catalog is easier than going through the website, looking for things
you don�t know are there.

They cater to the model railroading, plastic modelers, crowd.  They have
various casing resins, but also, more what you would want, some rubber
casting materials for mold making.  They use this to copy various
shapes, the final cast with resin.  Epoxy would do as well.  There are a
variety of setting times available.  For example, Hobbypoxy (by Pettit
Paint, a common hobby shop item) comes in 5 minute type which is fully
hard in 15 minutes.  They also have a 15 min working time (I think,
Hobbypoxy IV), and a 45 minute working time variety, (Hobbypoxy II).
The longer setting time epoxies are less brittle, have a little flex,
but this is not really a problem for a baffle.

Epoxies can be thinned by warming (heat gun for a few seconds), which
will also speed setting.

Good thing about epoxy, once set it is pretty much non-toxic.

There are also moldable two-part epoxy putties, and other materials and
tools that would be ideal for this.  I think they also have a miniature
tool like a woodworker uses to copy contour of a molding� like a series
of sliding rods in a little rack.  Hard to describe.

I have seen a brand of moldable epoxy in some craft stores, and in
Micromark, called Milliput.  This comes in a wide variety of colors.  It
is like modeling clay, but has a hardener.  I have not tried this, but
it looks like a suitable product.

Also Micromark has various little hand tools that are useful.

Paul


Thaddeus Mugwump wrote:

>  I have put in a few baffles in hard rubber mouthpieces
> using various substances ranging from flexible rubber
> gasket material to various epoxies. When using epoxy I
> cast an impression of the chamber with a malleable wax
> substance, then I make a negative cast of the wax
> impression in plaster of paris.
>
> After the plaster of Paris has set, I remove the wax
> from the paraffin cast. Then I break the plaster of
> paris mould to free the epoxy baffle.
>
> Then the work begins, which means a LOT of filing to
> get the baffle to the proper height and to make it
> level.
>
> My Question: Is there an easier way of doing this,
> perhaps some other material I can use which will allow
> me to put the baffle material directly into the
> chamber without having to worry about misapplied
> epoxy, etc.? I am presently using JB Weld, and the
> baffles work quite well but they take an awfully long
> time to make them.
> --- kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> > I think 220 is a bit too coarse too.  I was getting
> > frustrated by the
> > lack of progress so I broke it out.  It probably
> > should only be used
> > on stainless steel, if at all.
> >
> > I was out of 320.  I think Jon Van Wie does most of
> > his work with 320
> > and steel wool.  I've used mostly 400 and 600 and
> > some crocus cloth
> > (1200?).
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3's at:

                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and view photos.

I find that a lot of modern mouthpiece baffles  have the insides of the corners of the tip raised.  I find that adjusing these raised areas down to flatten and balance the baffle results in the piece being more efficient, free blowing and not as stuffy.  This is especially evident in modern Link Tenor pieces. Does anyone else find this?
Ross