I do not think that Santy's mouthpiece pitch test, necessarily shows 
one "proper embouchure."  I have some soprano mouthpieces that all 
play the Db pitch without any effort and I have two that play another 
pitch.
If I follow Santy's directions I have to change my embouchure to one 
that is not comfortable and is unnatural to maintain, just to make 
these two mouthpiece blow the right pitch.

I am sure that Santy is saying, that if the mouthpiece was designed to 
play the right pitch and the pitch produced was wrong only to a 
particular player and not to other players, it is because that player, 
was having trouble with his embouchure. This player needs to form 
proper embouchure and his trouble will be corrected.

I do not think that Santy is saying, that poorly designed mouthpieces 
can and should be playable regardless, if one compensates with his 

Try not to read too much into the mouthpiece pitch thing.  It's just 
a tool to help teach embouchure to beginners.  I played for years 
before I ever heard of it, and I never had any intonation problems.

The main problem I have with the theory is that it does not take into 
account the length of the mouthpiece, and the amount of neck that 
intrudes into the mpc when placed on the horn.  To be consistent with 
the original theremin experiment (on alto), the A=880 pitch must 
enter the neck of the horn right at the opening.  Since most of us 
usually push our mouthpieces at least half an inch or more, that 
means that the A=880 pitch must occur inside the mouthpiece at the 
beginning of the neck pipe.

So if you have your mouthpiece in the proper position on the neck to 
play the range of the horn in tune, and there's 1 inch of neck up 
inside the mouthpiece, then the A=880 must be happening up inside the 
mouthpiece 1 inch back from the shank end.  So if you tried to play 
the mouthpiece alone, you would have 1 inch of extra "tube" beyond 
the point inside the mouthpiece where the A=880 is produced, which 
would cause the tone produced by the mpc alone to be a little flat.  
This effect would vary somewhat with overall mouthpiece length.

This theory is consistent with my personal obervations.  Whenever I 
try the mouthpiece-only exercise, I'm usually nearly a whole step 
flat (on tenor).  And I have never had any intonation problems.

As I said, though, I think the mouthpiece exercise is useful to help 
beginners understand that proper embouchure control requires constant 
and even pressure and support.

And that's all I have to say about that...

Mike

> And that's all I have to say about that...

With this exception: I did not read the theremin thread out at SOTW 
before posting my last message.  But, lo and behold, danmcb expressed 
basically the same thoughts regarding the effect of mpc length on 
pitch.  Obviously, danmcb is a highly intelligent individual.

The (alto) mouthpiece is not working at 880 when put on the horn.  It is
then resonating at whatever length is present at the time.  But the
point is, the amount of embouchure tension required to make the alto
mouthpiece alone resonate at 880 hz is also the amount of tension it
takes to play most of the normal range of the alto sax, when assembled.

More importantly, when playing the mouthpiece only, without the
tremendous resonating chamber of the sax, the player must find the most
efficient way to produce a tone.  With the mouthpiece on the sax, a tone
can be made with almost any embouchure, no matter how bad.  Heck, the
horn will produce a tone without blowing, just by plunking the keys
down.  It just wants to resonate.  But with the mouthpiece only, the
player must find the proper amount of mouthpiece to insert, get his
lower lip at about the "break" of the facing, and approximately the
correct tension.  It allows a quick way to find the most efficient
embouchure.

There is enough "slack" in this to allow for variations in mouthpieces,
large vs small chamber, long shank vs short.  But a player that plays as
sharp as C on the alto mouthpiece will certainly have a pinched, thin
tone,and  difficulty with low register.  A person that plays very far
below the A will have trouble with the high notes.

I use this method to teach beginnners, to help correct more experience
players when they come to me with problems, and as a reality check for
myself every so often.

I have also done this experiment in reverse... I have asked players with
good tones, good control (whether students or pros, good tone is good
tone) to blow their mouthpiece only.  Invariably, they will blow very
near, or right on A for alto players, G for tenor, etc.

Yes, it is just a tool for teaching embouchure, but I know of no better,
faster tool.

mikeruhl wrote:

>  Try not to read too much into the mouthpiece pitch thing.  It's just
> a tool to help teach embouchure to beginners.  I played for years
> before I ever heard of it, and I never had any intonation problems.
>
> The main problem I have with the theory is that it does not take into
> account the length of the mouthpiece, and the amount of neck that
> intrudes into the mpc when placed on the horn.  To be consistent with
> the original theremin experiment (on alto), the A=880 pitch must
> enter the neck of the horn right at the opening.  Since most of us
> usually push our mouthpieces at least half an inch or more, that
> means that the A=880 pitch must occur inside the mouthpiece at the
> beginning of the neck pipe.
>
> So if you have your mouthpiece in the proper position on the neck to
> play the range of the horn in tune, and there's 1 inch of neck up
> inside the mouthpiece, then the A=880 must be happening up inside the
> mouthpiece 1 inch back from the shank end.  So if you tried to play
> the mouthpiece alone, you would have 1 inch of extra "tube" beyond
> the point inside the mouthpiece where the A=880 is produced, which
> would cause the tone produced by the mpc alone to be a little flat.
> This effect would vary somewhat with overall mouthpiece length.
>
> This theory is consistent with my personal obervations.  Whenever I
> try the mouthpiece-only exercise, I'm usually nearly a whole step
> flat (on tenor).  And I have never had any intonation problems.
>
> As I said, though, I think the mouthpiece exercise is useful to help
> beginners understand that proper embouchure control requires constant
> and even pressure and support.
>
> And that's all I have to say about that...
>
> Mike
>
>
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>
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  http://www.saxontheweb.net

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The thread referred to is at forum.saxontheweb.net

And is at Sax On The Web / Tone Producing / santy runyon's theramin
experiment



mikeruhl wrote:

>  > And that's all I have to say about that...
>
> With this exception: I did not read the theremin thread out at SOTW
> before posting my last message.  But, lo and behold, danmcb expressed
> basically the same thoughts regarding the effect of mpc length on
> pitch.  Obviously, danmcb is a highly intelligent individual.
>
>
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                        ADVERTISEMENT


>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Link to Paul's articles from Home page of "Sax on the Web":

  http://www.saxontheweb.net

or directly to Paul's articles at:

  http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/

Listen to Paul's MP3 samples at:

  http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

and click Paul's MP3's.

> I am sure that Santy is saying, that if the mouthpiece was designed 
to 
> play the right pitch and the pitch produced was wrong only to a 
> particular player and not to other players, it is because that 
player, 
> was having trouble with his embouchure. This player needs to form 
> proper embouchure and his trouble will be corrected.
> 
> I do not think that Santy is saying, that poorly designed 
mouthpieces 
> can and should be playable regardless, if one compensates with 
his...

I agree.  It would be wrong to say if one could play a tenor 
mouthpiece at A it would work on alto.  I just dont think this is a 
sensitive enough test to sort out good mouthpiece chamber designs off 
the sax.

I have a C soprano and 2 Bbs.  My vintage straight Bb Conn allows me 
to play 1-1.5 steps flat on the MP (loose) and still plays reasonably 
well in tune.  My other 2 are not as forgiving.  They need that 
supported Db to minimize intonation problems.